Are You Traveling to Escape… or Find Yourself? The Psychology of Travel (feat. Bryan Gastelle)

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Brian, do you think most people travel to find themselves or to escape something?

SPEAKER_02 0:05

I think if you put those two reasons up against each other, it might be more of an escape than anything. Finding yourself is is great, but it's kind of a lofty goal. Uh where I think, you know, a lot of times people are trying to avoid burnout they feel or problems that they have.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Uh do you believe you can find yourself without leaving where you are?

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Yes, absolutely. I think we take ourselves everywhere we go. We don't actually need to travel to find ourselves. Uh it just takes giving yourself that attention.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Every journey has a story, and every story has the power to heal. My story hasn't been ordinary. I was adopted, I'm a survivor of abuse and trauma, and I have more than a dozen siblings. That's just the beginning of my story. Life has taken me on a long and winding road of healing and personal growth. A journey that ultimately led me back to myself and the path I was meant to walk. Along the way, I discovered that stories have power. The power to connect us, to help us grow, and even to help us heal. This is Travel Time Stories with Shannon. Real journey, real stories, and real healing. Have you ever booked a trip? Not because you needed a vacation, but because you needed to get away from your life.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

From the stress, the burnout, maybe even yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Here's the hard truth. You can change your location, but you can't outrun what's going on inside.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

So the question is, are you traveling to find yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Or just trying to escape? Welcome back to Travel Time Stories, where we explore the journeys that shape us, both around the world and within ourselves. Real journeys, real stories, real healing, one conversation at a time. I'm your host, Shannon from Texas, and I'm joined by my co-host, Ann from Missouri.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Let's be honest. Sometimes we don't travel just to see new places.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Sometimes we travel because we're trying to feel something different or maybe stop feeling something altogether.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

And that raises an important question. Are we traveling to find ourselves or to escape ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Today we're diving into that with Brian Gastel, a clinical psychologist and founder of Empower Psychotherapy.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Brian specializes in helping busy adults navigate anxiety, burnout, relationships, and ADHD using practical tools that work in real life.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Brian, we're so glad you're here. Welcome to the show. Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Everyone, grab your favorite beverage and let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Brian, do you think most people travel to find themselves or to escape something?

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Well, I think if you put those two reasons up against each other, it might be more of an escape than anything. Finding yourself is is great, but it's kind of a lofty goal. Uh, where I think, you know, a lot of times people are trying to avoid burnout they feel or problems that they have, uh, you know, leaving some sort of something behind uh when they do.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

How can someone tell the difference between healthy travel and using travel as a form of avoidance?

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Well, I think we've just got to look and be and take an honest take at the reasons for the travel, right? So if we think about it and the travel is taking us away from a bigger problem that's harder for us to cope with, or something that, you know, that's that's your typical avoidance behavior. So if I'm traveling to get away from, you know, the the job I don't like, or uh, you know, the people in my circle that don't respect my boundaries or something like that, then that would definitely be an avoidance behavior. Uh, you know, if on the other hand, if it's just a vacation you've been planning for a while and seems enjoyable, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Is there anything wrong with using travel as an escape sometimes?

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Not necessarily in and of itself, I wouldn't say. I think we all need that, and sometimes we just need a breather some time to just step away and compose ourselves. So I think if we're using travel as a temporary escape to compose ourselves, then yeah, that's okay. Uh I think where it turns into a problem is when the avoidance behavior starts reinforcing itself or encouraging itself. And so, yeah, it's like when we go away and we're like, that was great, I should do that again in a couple weeks or something, then it's it's turning into more of like a burden that you have to do rather than a one-timer scoping skill.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

That makes sense. So there's that saying, wherever you go, there you are. Why is it that we can change our location but still feel the same internally?

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Well, that is our internal world doesn't necessarily react directly to the outside world. You know, we can be feeling we can have the best situation going on in the outside world. And if our outlook is bad or if we're depressed or something, we may feel something very different. So traveling to certain places is gonna change the scenery around you. But if on the inside you're not well, you know, you're not doing well, yeah, then that's it's still gonna catch up with you.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah. So what are the most common things that people are actually trying to outrun? I mean, I could think of one off my head and that's burnout, but what are some other ones?

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Yeah, burnout definitely blunt uh deserves a seat at the top of that list. I think other things that people try to outrun are problematic relationships. I've, you know, sometimes I'll see relationships where boundaries are being pushed quite a bit, sometimes in like familial, uh even friends. Romantic relationships can be have a you know toxic outcome too. And so people might be trying to move away from that, although I don't see that quite as much. Not to say it doesn't happen. I would say other reasons, things people try to avoid, maybe in a way, like an environment that's that's not serving them, you know, like going back to the boundaries and like interpersonal relationships just all throughout our lives. If we let that go by the wayside or we cultivate a life that we don't necessarily like for whatever reason, but people will will try to go away from that too.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

That makes total sense. So let's flip it. How can travel be used in a healthy way to grow and reconnect with yourself?

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Travel can be a very healthy thing and is actually a big form of self-care if done right. Uh, I think we've got to first ask ourselves why we're doing it, make sure it's not an avoidance behavior. We're not putting off uh a problem that we really should be coping with, you know, for another day. I think another thing is planning it out and understanding what fills your cup and what does not. So different forms of travel and different forms of activities can be good for different people. Somebody, one person might be very active and love to, you know, move from location to location or have like a multi-destination travel itinerary, and then someone else might just want to relax and you know be on the beach the whole time. And both of those are okay. And it's just about knowing yourself and what you need. I think actually keeping travel low stress is another way of ensuring that it turns into self-care rather than uh, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah, that's really good advice. I think some intentional ways that people should approach travel is like setting the attention the intention ahead of time and uh like you say, slow it down, do slow travel versus a overpacked itinerary and journaling even while you're while you're traveling is another great thing. And just be present, don't get distracted, just be present in the moment and really take things in.

unknown 8:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

I really like that point too, taking the moment to be mindful, taking our present moment rather than the past or the future can really help us center ourselves and add some enjoyment, even.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yeah, exactly.

unknown 8:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

So you work with a lot of people that are dealing with burnout, anxiety, and ADHD. Why are so many people feeling overwhelmed right now?

SPEAKER_02 9:05

I think people are feeling overwhelmed because of the demands of day-to-day life in many ways. There's just a lot right now. The you know, cost of living has steadily increased. There's just more and more demands. Technology, while being helpful, is also a big source of stress. There's research showing that like social media usage and um generally like use of mobile devices can increase stress, actually. And then we're just being asked, like going back to the cost of living thing, we're being asked to do more, right? The same groceries cost more now, and the same house costs more now. So I think that folks are being presented with those types of challenges, and that's uh that's making it go up.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah, I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah. So what are some simple tools people can use when they're feeling overwhelmed, you know, whether they're traveling or at home?

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Sure. Uh so overwhelm, I think you'd want to ask why you're feeling overwhelmed, because there's different reasons that that can come about. Uh, but if it's just simple overwhelm, like if you're just have too many things on your plate and it's just not uh sustainable, then I would suggest looking at the day-to-day and thinking like, okay, what can I cut out? A lot of times people will get in this trap, especially when dealing with anxiety, where they feel like everything's important. I can't take any time for myself. But the truth is that we've got a priority issue at that point because the self-care should be higher on the priority list than the other things we often trade it for. Uh yeah, say that.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

I I think people forget about self-care a lot.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yes, they do.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

So travel can also impact relationships for better or worse. What do you see happening when couples travel together?

SPEAKER_02 11:02

It can be a very big positive or it can be a very big negative. I think it largely depends on going back to that factor of planning for success when you travel. If things are chaotic, if they're stressful and somebody's really just not wired that way, if they're not, you know, someone that likes that type of situation, uh then it will show and it will create stress. And especially if you travel with somebody. Now we've got a pressure cooker where two people are stressed at the same time, and yeah, that can cause some problems. On the other hand, you know, and maybe for like a couple or something, traveling can actually be pretty helpful because it's time away from the demands of the real world. And if done correctly, it can be time to build that relationship, even if it's not a romantic relationship, time to build that friendship or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah. And I think travel too, when you're traveling with a spouse or a boyfriend or whatever as a couple when you're traveling, it reveals things that everyday life hides because a lot of those layers that are normally hiding things are now removed because you're on vacation. So yeah, it can be both a positive and a negative.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Definitely, Santa.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

So, Brian, for someone who feels stuck or like they're constantly trying to get away, what would you want them to understand about themselves?

SPEAKER_02 12:34

I think the first thing I would do is look at where where that stuck feeling is coming from. So if I look at maybe the top five stressors in my day, can I list them out? What would they be? I think knowing what that is is the first part of it. And then seeing where we can either carve out time for more self-care or limit the stress that's actually coming in. Because stress is uh the best answer to it is self-care, really. But sometimes if we don't have time for self-care, you know, if realistically there just aren't enough hours in the day, and I've seen situations like that. Um then we need to look at the stress coming in and what can we do about that as well. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yes. So do you believe you can find yourself without leaving where you are?

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think we take ourselves everywhere we go. We don't actually need to travel to find ourselves. It just takes giving yourself that attention, taking a moment thinking about, you know, what do I really want? And it sounds simple. It sounds like something we would do, but uh no, I think it's really important to set aside time to just reflect.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah. Exactly. And so do you think you can ever outrun anxiety?

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Not outrun. Uh no. In fact, uh outrunning, I think, in a way, people who stay active, I guess I'll qualify my statement. If you're active, that can loosen anxiety up a little bit, it can make it a little bit better. Because anxiety is such a motivating emotion. We want to go, go, go when we're anxious. And so if you tire the body out, it's harder to be anxious. That said, running away from something in its true sense, like if we're running outrunning anxiety, maybe we think like, okay, let me travel here and then I won't have to worry about it. The truth is it's just gonna come back. And especially anxiety, sometimes anxiety can have more to do with the way we process things than the actual stress in our lives. Not always, but if that's the case and it's the way we process things, then of course we're not gonna outrun it. Um that's true.

unknown 14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Before we continue, I want to share something really special we've created for this community. If you've ever listened to an episode and felt something deeper, like a moment that stayed with you, or a story that made you reflect on your own life, we wanted to give you a place to go with that. We've officially launched our Travel Time Stories membership, where you can go beyond listening and become part of the experience. Inside the membership, you'll get access to the Story Circle, our private community where we reflect on each episode through guided journal prompts, share our stories, and connect through monthly meetups. There are also additional tiers with opportunities to go even deeper from storytelling and sharing your voice to being part of the creative journey behind the scenes and joining us on our yearly group travels. If this speaks to you, you can join us through the link in the show notes or visit our website, travel timestories.com. We would truly love to have you join the community.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Why do people think that changing our environment will fix the internal struggles?

SPEAKER_02 16:15

I think it's it's uh ingrained in culture and media and just the way that mainstream media uh portrays the way that we think of the things that matter. Often we're we look at what the environment is for any any person to see like how they're doing, you know, and so that's the benchmark we're used to using. And so I think people get confused because in at the end, happiness is not necessarily about what's going on in the outside world. It's influenced by it, but it's not directly about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

So, with so many different therapy modalities out there and everything, explain to us how yours is different or than some of the other modalities that are out there.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

So I actually use multiple modalities. Um I probably, if I'm gonna pick one that I favor the most, it would be cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

CBT, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah, and so I use CBT as just uh, you know, a tool for almost everything. If there's someone who's depressed or if they're anxious, I think CBT is incredibly effective, different than many modalities because it's very action-oriented, very solution focused, uh, and designed to be pretty brief. So um a lot of times, you know, if somebody comes in, they're looking for CBT and they have some anxiety. I would look at the thoughts that are contributing to their anxiety. So are they make, you know, are we making assumptions? Are we jumping to conclusions about, you know, what other people think about us or what's gonna happen in the future? Uh are we putting unnecessary, you know, expectations on ourselves or personalizing things? And then I would also look at the behavior too. So if they're in a situation where, let's say, for whatever reason, someone who's used to high-level activity uh does is is forced into very low-level activity, that can cause anxiety by itself. Or um if day-to-day stress adds up. So CBT is all just about looking at thoughts and behavior and how they're influencing our emotions. And I think that by itself just really sets it apart. It's been my go-to for a long time, and I've always favored the one that research suggests is gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

And so, how how important would you say therapy is in regards to self-care?

SPEAKER_02 18:45

One of the most important things you can do. I think therapy is something that can really help you in ways that are hard to quantify, hard to really overstate that like if you look at your thought process, we you know, we carry ourselves around every day. We live in our our minds every day. So why would you not want something that's gonna help you experience that in a in a better way? I'm all about it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Why do you think uh mental health in our country is so hard for people to get?

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Mental health, there's a lot of stigma around it. I think we're it's it goes back to that culture and that messaging that everybody gets. Our behavior is kind of considered the end all be all for our personality and who we are. And so if our mental health is off, we often get, you know, responses like, oh, you should try harder, you should just, you know, do this better, or something like that. And the answer isn't always that simple. And so actually, a comparison I like to use is the way we treat medicine, you know, in the body versus mental health. So if somebody has high blood pressure and they take a medication that lowers their blood pressure, most people are gonna be like, oh, okay, you know, whatever. If somebody has, you know, anxiety and they take an anti-anxiety medication, there's sometimes stigma there. And it's very similar, basically the same in my opinion. And so I think that that's like a very good way to measure the stigma that's there.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah, we really need to break that stigma in this country because there's so many people that need help that aren't getting it because of the stigma around it. Yeah, exactly. And so you run your own practice, correct? Okay. So in running your own practice, what have you found running your own private practice versus uh the a group practice or, you know, under one of the hospitals or one of the other labels?

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Sure. There's a lot of difference actually. Uh the kind of practice I run, we do uh, you know, a lot of work with like commercial insurance and we do what's just kind of typical outpatient. I've worked in all kinds of settings before, and it's very different from setting to setting. I really enjoy this work because we get a chance to help individuals that are uh often ready for that next step. You know, a lot of times we'll get people that are truly motivated, they they came to therapy for a reason, and that's always really uh a trip to work with. It's very it's a lot of fun. Um sometimes in hospitals, you know, or uh like community mental health, you'll get folks that aren't necessarily there in terms of motivation. Um you know, the the circumstances are different, it puts more workload on the on the provider and there's not a lot of support in some cases. So Well, I think there's that level of benefit just for being a therapist too.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Yeah. So why is it so hard, or why do so many insurance companies not cover therapy? It's out of network and not in network.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

And especially since it affects our entire body, everything else.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

You would yeah. Yeah. It's coming up with a reason that I agree with would be challenging, but I can tell you why I think they do it. Is it's something that's hard to quantify. You know, it's not like going to the doctor and, you know, getting blood pressure medication or something like that. Right. It's harder, it's harder to prove, it's harder to see the benefit because it is so global. And I think that our field does need to step up in terms of like providing benchmarks of improvement for folks so that we can say, like, yeah, we are worth that insurance money. So I think that that's part of it. I think the other part is probably just stigma, you know, uh it's just the way this it's viewed. But I do think that there should be a lot of attention given to therapy because it's a very powerful tool.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Yeah. And by not by it not being covered, that excludes a lot of people from being able to get therapy because they can't afford to pay out of network or out of pocket. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

And with the number of mental health issues that we have in this country, that's something that definitely needs to change. Everybody needs to have access to mental health. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Especially with some of the crazy stuff that's going on these days. I I feel like if some people, if we were to have better access, ready access to mental health at any point that you need it, I just feel like we wouldn't have, it would be less. Maybe not. Maybe I'm dreaming. But I really do think that I really do think that access to therapy would help so many people. They'd have somewhere to go. Someone to give them some direction to talk to.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah, for sure. And so you predominantly do telehealth, right? I know you do in-person as well, but your predominant business is telehealth, correct?

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Yes. Empower currently is uh we're mostly telehealth. We've got a couple of in-person locations now.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

So and what do you see, or how do you like the difference between doing the telehealth versus in-person or in-office?

SPEAKER_02 24:30

I really enjoy telehealth. I I think it's it's definitely got its pros and cons. And so, you know, I think there's definitely a place for in-person as well. But a huge advantage that telehealth has over in-person is accessibility. So folks who are busy, they live in remote areas, maybe they don't live near a psychologist or something like that, can get quality care. I think it it takes away some of the barrier to entry for therapy too. So, you know, if I want therapy, but I work, you know, uh 40 hours a week, then that's sometimes difficult to do is show up to an appointment, you know, once a week. Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

So I think that the reduce or the zero commute really cuts down on that problem.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah, I agree with that. I think it's really opened doors and allowed people who maybe before couldn't go to therapy because of, you know, scheduling or whatnot. Now they can get that because I mean you can do an appointment in your car on your phone now. So that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah. I know through my job, probably three years ago, you hardly ever saw a telehealth visit. Now I'm seeing them every day. So they are getting very popular. People are very comfortable. So it's a great way to see somebody without having to go in office.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Yeah, exactly. And does your I know you're in Arizona, but you have people uh in other states as well, right? That offer services.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Yeah, we've got coverage in other states now. We've got Pennsylvania, Georgia, Arizona, uh, of Arizona, of course, Kentucky, Ohio. Um so we're expanding every day. Our reach just keeps getting bigger. And it's it's nice sometimes because folks want to travel over state lines, and the way uh, you know, therapy licensure works, your therapist can't follow you, but at least, you know, you can get in a referral within in-house.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. So what's one mindset that people can do to help shift things? Mindset shift.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

There's there's lots of them I like to go over. I think um one of the biggest ones, the big one really, is filtering our thoughts in a way that challenges the negative and reduces those shortcuts. So going back to CBT, that's the big part of the therapy I offer. And one of the big tenets of CBT is that changing your thoughts to change the emotion. So I'll do these things called thought records where we'll look at unhelpful thinking styles and try to break them down. And the mindset shift that it's I'm really just trying to get promote the entire time is stopping before those thoughts get through. So if we have a negative thought, oftentimes it's we've thought it so many times that we don't even pay attention to it. It just goes right through. And instead slowing it down and thinking, like, is that really true? You know, is that person really mad at me? That type of thing. Um, or you know, any other assumption, I just use that one because it's common.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Well, Brian, this conversation really shifts how we think about travel, not just as an experience, but also as a mirror.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

And you know, maybe the goal isn't to escape our lives, but to understand them better.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah, exactly. So thank you for sharing your insight and giving us tools that we can use.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

And Brian, where can our listeners find more about you and your work?

SPEAKER_02 28:14

I would love for our listeners to check out www.empowermytherapy.com. That is the company website. But even if you don't live in one of the states that we cover yet, uh, we still have really good information on lots of different diagnoses that we treat. Uh, and I do open the free consultation offer to folks that are simply looking for good care. If you want to use that offer, you can. And also just check out the resources our website has. I'd love for you to see it.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Definitely gonna check that out. So, to everyone listening, whether you're planning your next trip or just trying to navigate your everyday life.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Remember, you don't have to run to find yourself. Brian's information will be in our show notes and on our website, traveltimestories.com, where each guest has a dedicated page so you can learn more about them and listen to their episodes. If you would like to be more involved with the show, please sign up for our private Facebook group, the Story Circle. Check the website for more information.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Thank you for listening to Travel Time Stories. Until next time, keep traveling and keep making memories for life.