They Married the Same Man—Then Became Best Friends | Surviving Toxic Relationships with Deana & Lizzie (Part 1)

SPEAKER_05 0:00

She went to um their mutual home and to get her things. And she found a box. And she was like, oh, so she's thinking it's hers. So she opens the box and she finds all these cards and letters that look like her handwriting. And she opened them up and after going through them, realized he'd had a whole nother relationship with a woman. And so all of the retreats and the, you know, I'm going to go do church things and I'm going to go, you know, talk about our, you know, work with someone on our marriage and all that was just a complete smokescreen for him having a whole nother life. And at that point, she and I were just like, wow, we have to find this woman because we already know what's going to happen. He's going to marry her immediately.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Wide open.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

So, how do intelligent, strong, capable women end up in toxic relationships? Why don't we see the red flags until we're already drowning in them? Why is leaving sometimes the hardest part, even when you know it's destroying you?

SPEAKER_04 2:05

Today's guests are going to help us answer these questions and more.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

If you've ever questioned your own reality, this conversation might change the way you see yourself forever. Today's guests have a story that sounds like a lifetime movie, but every word of it is true. Dina and Lizzie were both married to the same narcissist at different times, a man they later discovered was leading a double life while leaving behind a trail of emotional and financial devastation. And instead of allowing that story to define them, they chose something extraordinary. They joined forces to help other women recognize the warning signs before it's too late. They're now the host of the award-winning podcast, Surviving Toxic Relationships with the Matadoras, where they educate, support, and empower survivors every single week. And I must admit, as I told you before we started, I'm a little starstruck because I'm a huge fan of your show and a cheerleader for the work that you do. Ladies, welcome to Travel Time Stories, and we're honored to have you on our show and can't wait to get into this discussion. Shannon, thank you so much, you too, Anne.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

What a privilege and honor for us to even be here. Thank you for inviting us.

SPEAKER_05 3:28

Yes, thank you so much, ladies. We are blessed to be here.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Thank you guys. So excited to have you both.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Exactly. So can you briefly tell our listeners who may not be familiar with your wonderful podcast, your story?

SPEAKER_05 3:47

Yeah. So our podcast is called Surviving Toxic Relationships. And we also have a YouTube channel too. We also have a Facebook group, a public Facebook group. And I mean, our story is crazy. Lizzie, you just jump in whenever you want. She knows I'm kind of a ball hog, so I tend to just she's more of the introvert. I'm more the extrovert.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

So she does such a good job at it. So we'll go with it. And I'll just spit in when I need to. She does.

SPEAKER_05 4:12

She just shoves in when she needs to. Um, but basically, I was married to a man for 27 years and found out within about two years that he had a sexual addiction, a really bad one. I was so young. I was only 17 when we married. I didn't know what to do with that. I had no clue. Um, you know, and I was a faith-based person, so I believed people could heal and get better, especially with God-loving marriage and wanting a family to be together and all the things, you know, that go with that. Well, you know, after 27 years, it became very obvious that this was not going to change. This is the way he was. And no matter what I did or anybody else did, or the therapy or the counseling or all the things, this was not going away. You know, I was made to think that this was something that could be healed or redeemed or, you know, and he would be so remorseful and so devastated when I would catch him, not before. And, you know, finally the gig was up and I realized, oh, okay, he's playing me. Like he doesn't want to change. He just pretends that he's devastated and cries and all the things. So anyway, um, so I finally walk out with a lot of peace and resolution. And within months, he went on a Christian dating site and found sweet Lizzie, who wow, he immediately lied to and told her that he'd been divorced for a couple of years. We weren't even divorced, and that I lived out of state, which was a lie, all the things. And my adult children were furious because they found out that he was completely lying to her. And my daughter, my very outspoken adult daughter, said, Mom, you need to tell her about him. You know, he's gonna marry her real quick. You already know what's gonna happen the minute your divorce is final. And I just couldn't do it. I just said, She's gonna think I'm the crazy ex. She's gonna think, you know, I'm I'm, you know, just kind of wacko like everybody else does, you know, when you talk about the husband or the new partner talks about their ex. I mean, you believe them. You believe they're crazy and all the things. And I just didn't have the guts to do it. So so sure enough, the minute he and I are divorced, he and Lizzie get married. My ex uninvited all the children to the wedding because he realized that probably my oldest daughter would squeal and tell about the lies. And so that's how they began. And Lizzie just wasn't any wiser for the wear or where, you know, whatever that phrase is.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah, and and it it was so hard because he was so charming. I had had a really rough first marriage, so I'd already been single for 10 years. And so when he came along, I was a single mom with four boys, no help. I mean, I had a good family system, I had some good friends, but it's not the same as someone that comes alongside you and works together to raise your children. And he wooed me by taking the boys to their practice sporting events, uh, helping them with their schoolwork, helping me with grocery shopping, helping me with cleaning the house. Those are things that were at that time of my life really spoke a love language. And it really seemed like he really wanted to get invested in me. So it did go rather quickly, but it was hard not to. It would just kind of happen. And then we got married fast, not as fast as my first marriage. So I'm learned something obviously after the second one. And I thought we had a good marriage for six years. We moved out of the state, we moved around because he had a job that he was trying to promote before he retired. And then six years later, I actually had just come back from one of my most favorite summers. We had a Harley Davidson, we rode from the East Coast to the West Coast. We were around the world for two months. It was so much fun and I loved it, right? It was the whole journey, the destinations, however you wanted to call it. And then we get home. Here I'm thinking I'm on this euphoria moment of going, man, that was awesome. Because as a school teacher at that time, I had summers off. And then it got really weird. He started going, saying he was going and spending time with his coworker from work who was helping him talk through our marriage and support us or whatever else. And I'm thinking, what's wrong with our marriage? Show denial to the fifth degree. And then it kept getting weirder and weirder, and then I started getting kicked out. Like I was locked out of our phone account, I was locked out of a Marriott's account, I was locked out of like multiple accounts, and two plus two wasn't adding up to four. It was just, it was so off-centered. And then it got to the point where I was um devastated. I was starting to feel abandoned, even though there was no evidence of anything, but I knew something was wrong. And so my sister came to town and he supposedly went up for a whole weekend, like a three-day weekend, and was spending time up there in a men's retreat and praying or whatever you want to call it. And then I my sister helped me pack my stuff up. Uh, she helped me get into a little place because I went through financial abuse. Dina did too. Went to get an out. I was just looking for a studio apartment, right? I didn't need anything spectacular. My credit was shot. So I couldn't even get a little studio apartment. Here I was, an educated, educated educator. It was so devastating. It was so humiliating. He had really destroyed my credit. And I mean, granted, now I tell people that's we have to make sure that's part of being wise, is you have to keep track of your finances. You can't kind of stay in the fog of all of that. And then over time, at first, I called Dina's oldest son and I told him that I had left their father. And at that point, I was getting ready just to file legal separation. I had an appointment with a lawyer, but I just wanted them to know that, you know, I don't know who's keeping an eye out on their dad, and he kind of threatened a little bit of suicide and you know, soicide ideations. And looking at it now, and Dina and I did a podcast on suicide manipulation. Some people use that for manipulation. So there was just so much tangled in there, and I was a hot mess. But then as I was talking to her son, he said, Hey, Lizzie, is it okay if I tell my mom, because she had journeyed through this for 27 years, and have her give you a quick call or reach out to you because she may have some wisdom and all of this. And like at that point, I'm like, Yeah, sure, go ahead. And then literally seconds later, I get a text from Dina. Yeah, Dina, do you want to share what you started doing? It's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

Yeah. So I reached out to Lizzie and I just, I mean, you know, of course, I felt kind of guilty, right? For all those six years, like, oh, I should have said something, this poor woman. No, but then you have that little seat of doubt, like, well, what if it's just our dynamic, he and I? Like, what if, you know, because I left, like it's the wake-up call, it's the big epiphany, and he'll change. And so, you know, you always have that feeling, like, maybe, you know, and and they seem to be doing well. So you just have that question mark. But sure enough, I, you know, when I realized that she was leaving, I was like, okay, never mind. And so I called her and man, we just talked for hours. And I made sure she knew absolutely everything. And it started checking so many boxes for her. And then it was very validating for me as well. And so at that point, we became the best of friends, and you know, she was in a different state. And as time went on, she went to their mutual home and to get her things and she found a box. And she was like, Oh, so she was thinking it's hers. So she opens the box and she finds all these cards and letters that look like her handwriting, and she opened them up and after going through them, realized he'd had a whole nother relationship with a woman and her children in another state or sorry, in another town nearby for almost a year.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 12:31

And so all of the retreats and the, you know, I'm gonna go do church things and I'm gonna go, you know, talk about our, you know, work with someone on our marriage and all that was just a complete smokescreen for him having a whole nother life. And at that point, she and I were just like, wow, we have to find this woman because we already know what's gonna happen. He's gonna marry her immediately. And the minute that Lizzie's divorce was up, we knew that would happen. And so we set out to find her. And it took us quite a while. We tried everything and finally did find her on Facebook. But you know, when you're not a friend on Facebook, you can't just message somebody, right? And they always see if you do. So after trying everything we could, including trying to find people she was related to and reach out to them and all the things. Finally, we just left a message in her Facebook inbox and just said, hey, listen, listen, Jane. We call her Jane. If you find this, Lizzie and I just want you to know that we can tell by your Facebook page that you are a wonderful woman. And, you know, I don't know if you're still with Rex. We call him RX Rex, or if not, but we want you to know that we're very sure that you are completely innocent, that you had no idea that he was married. And if you ever want to reach out, we're here and we're we're willing to talk and help and do anything we can. So I left that message and let it go. And so sure enough, weeks went by and gosh, even what, six weeks, I think, Lizzie, right? Six weeks went by and hadn't heard anything, so I would kind of give it up. And of course, the worst possible time ever in the world that someone could have called, I'm on my way to to do to be a speaker at an event. And I'm ADD, okay? So I wasn't prepared. I mean, I was getting to the event early to prepare to get away from all the home chaos. And but I wasn't. And so I get this call, and of course, Lizzie and I have been dying, dying to get a hold of this woman, right? And for the whole time. She was always on our minds. And sure enough, here comes this phone call. And I was like, no, don't answer it. Don't answer it. Don't answer it. And I answered it because I just had to. And so here's this woman's voice that said, you know, is this Dina? And I said, yes. And she said, Listen, I got this message in my Facebook inbox. I'm so confused. I don't know what you're talking about. Can you explain? And I said, Of course. So I said, Listen, Lizzie and I just wanted you to know. And I just kind of reiterated what was in the message. And she just was so confused. And she said, Who's Lizzie? And then I realized she had just cut Lizzie out of the history. She said, I know that you and he were married, and I know you've been divorced for six years, and I know you have this many kids, and I know and I was like, Lizzie is the wife that he just divorced, they just divorced. And she's like, What? And now I can hear the panic in her voice. And she's like, Where did they live? You know, and I said, Well, they lived in this, you know, certain town not far from you. And she's like, That little house where he was taking care of the old man and old woman? That was their house. And I said, Oh my gosh. There was no old man and old woman. Like, that was he and Lizzie's home. And then she panics even more and she's like, You mean the red coat I'm wearing right now is not a gift from the little old lady? And I'm like, Nope, it's probably Lizzie's. She's like, Oh my god. So now, of course, she just the questions start tumbling out. And the panic also starts tumbling out because her oldest son had just gone off on a on a motorcycle trip with Rex. And now she doesn't know who Rex is and if he's safe, and if her son is safe. And you know, he's not a kid, he's on his own bike and everything. But of course, she's panicking. So, anyway, so of course, you know, I'm calming her down saying he's not that kind of dangerous. It's, you know, not gonna hurt your kid, whatever. But yes, this is who he is, and this is what happened. And so, anyway, so that's kind of the story. She connected with Lizzie very shortly afterward, and they got to really sit down and connect dots. And I'm talking like the big bike trip that he and Lizzie went on that was so wonderful. You know, Lizzie had bought a souvenir, but he had given it to Jane and said, This is for you. I went on, you know, told her he went on this bike trip by himself just to have some time with God and self-discovery. You know, I mean, it's like the pictures that the two of them had taken together on this trip. He sent, he cut out Lizzie and then just sent of him. The stuff that they connected was hilarious. And he was actually telling Lizzie that he had a job as an Uber driver, you know, for some of the events, some of the times that he wasn't off on the weekend retreats. So that the evenings and such. And then he was telling Jane that he was working out at the gym and stuff and couldn't, and he couldn't take her by, you know, he could her by the house a couple times, but he couldn't take her in because of the elderly couple. So the funny thing about Jane is she was a sassy redhead. She's hilarious. And she's like, I should have known this little southern accent. I should have known that he wasn't working out because he's still fat. But she was mad, so of course she's just looking for anything. But it was like, it was the craziest story. And that woman, that little sassy redhead, she immediately, I mean, immediately, she found everybody she knew in this small town because she cut hair and she knew the lawyers and the policeman and the judge and everybody. And by the time Rex rolled in a couple days later with her son on his motorcycle, police escorts came out and escorted him into the driveway. She had his car completely packed to the hilt. And she already had an annulment and a court date. And when he got off that motorcycle, he was just dumbfounded. I mean, absolutely dumbfounded. And he yells in the house because she wasn't coming out. She just had the screen door open and he yells up to the house like, You didn't even hear my side. Which Lizzie and I giggle about all the time. We're like, what could your side possibly be that would make her come? Yeah. I want to come back with you. Right. So that's where Lizzie and I were like, well, actually, Lizzie, she's the one that said, we're gonna tell our story. And at that time I had this really nice career in healthcare. You know, I worked full-time as a manager and I loved it. And you know, something did feel like it was kind of missing, but you know, I had for the first time in my life living with this man, I actually had some income. It was so nice to actually have, you know, something left over after a paycheck. But man, Lizzie was like, nope, we're gonna tell our story and this is what we're gonna do. And here we are.

SPEAKER_04 19:33

That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

I'm I'm yeah, I'm super glad that Lizzie said that. So that's why I asked my first thing between you two was who drug who into this? Because there's always that one person, and the other person's like, I don't know about that. Yeah, there's a lot of things. But I'll just start a blog, but Dina's, as you could tell, she's the extrovert, so she's like, No, let's let's start a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

So yeah, there we are. And that's what's funny about us is I drug Ann in, but I'm the introvert, and Anne's the extrovert. Oh wow. So nice very nice.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

I love the flip. That is perfect. Yeah, I love that. Fantastic. Good job, Shannon.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

And that's funny, Dina, that you were in healthcare. That's I work in healthcare as well. That's my nine to five job is healthcare. And then the podcast is our evening and weekend job, I call it. Great, that's amazing. What do you do in healthcare, Shannon? Uh, I'm in healthcare management or education. So yeah. Yeah. Small world. Exactly. Yeah. And it's so funny that you two ended up being like sisters versus enemies. It could have very easily gone the other way and you've been enemies, but it just shows the power of God bringing y'all together as sisters versus enemies to really bond and and help each other. I love that. I agree.

SPEAKER_05 21:06

And I think, you know, unfortunately, I think a lot of women feel like their crazy, crazy partner's ex is, you know, some psychopath. And, you know, I think a lot of times that's probably not true, especially if the person you're with is wrecking your life, they're probably the problem, you know, and you're probably not the first person that they've wrecked.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

So or that's a good red flag if you're dating and they're totally bashing and telling horrible things about their ex. Maybe step back and say you have to watch their patterns. Like, could it be their patterns of behavior that's really the destructive one? But that just goes to show that dating really needs to take time. And a lot of us end up in these relationships and we're married awfully fast because we don't know, we just don't put two and two together at that time. Cause there's some of them are so good. But that's a huge red flag. If they start bashing, step back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah, exactly. I think one of the hardest parts about toxic relationships or emotional abuse is that it doesn't usually begin with screaming or physical abuse or anything like that. It's always quiet. It begins quietly. And it usually seems like such a wonderful relationship, especially to the outside world. And so what are some of the first signs that something is changing?

SPEAKER_05 22:34

Well, for me, um, one of the first signs was there was he was missing a lot with no explanation. So, you know, I'd come home from work and he was supposed to be there. And we lived in a really small town. I mean, you know, the streets rolled up by 8 p.m. But he wouldn't be there. And that was strange. And even when we were dating, there were just weird little things. People would say things to me like, he had a girlfriend at the same time he was dating you. And, you know, just little signs like that that I thought were really odd. Um, but of course he would explain them away so brilliantly. Yeah. Um, but it didn't take long, maybe a year after we were married, I caught him in some lies. And that's another huge red flag. If there's things that are obvious lies, and I don't care if they're tiny lies, like, well, I just lied to you because I didn't want you to be upset, or you know, I didn't want to rock the boat, or you're just not feeling well right now. Any lies, any sense of unease in you, um, any kind of time you think something just feels off, those are some of the earliest signs for me that I unfortunately let him explain away.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Very true. And I would definitely ditto that. I think too, it's like if looking now, maybe not then, it's the fact that they brought nobody into the relationship. A person, especially when the older you get, or even, you know, high school, after high school, but especially when you start hitting that career field of life, phase of life or season, when they have no one to bring in, they kind of keep quiet about their family. You know, there's always an excuse why you don't meet them. If they have children, why you don't even get to meet the children, which you understand in the beginning, because you're talking about blending, but if over time there's like reasons and you notice that they're not really communicating with their child, there's probably a good red flag and a good reason for that. So that was a big one that now looking back, I see quite a bit. It's who that they bring in. See, all of that shows that we have to have time to watch patterns of behavior and to be careful of the charming mouth because charm and character are so different. Charm is what you see on the outsides. A lot of these abuse, especially the emotional abuse of people, they are so charming. There may be pillars of the community or deacons at the church, whatever they are. But what is their character behind closed doors? And if you are dating someone or you're with somebody and they are so different outside of your home or outside the door than they are on the inside of the door, then you're probably dealing with a charmer that does not have good character. Good characters are gonna be the same both places. Not that they're not gonna have rough moments, because that's just life, that's just human nature, right? But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Would you say that if someone is a smotherer, that that's a red flag as well? Where oh absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Someone that doesn't allow you, they like to they're isolated themselves because here they brought nobody into the relationship. So they slowly kind of isolate you from the people that you that you are interacting with, and a lot of times it happens so slowly that you don't realize it's happening because it seems so like at first, like, are they protecting me? Are they, you know, making sure that I'm doing okay? And it is this care or love, but it's really not. It's someone trying to take control. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 26:13

So, how does someone know the difference between normal relationship conflicts and manipulation?

SPEAKER_05 26:19

That's a great question. A normal a normal relationship conflict, the goal for both parties is to resolve it. And also, while they're resolving it, they are doing it with care for each other. In other words, we have a conflict, but I still love you and I want to be a team, and then the other person treats this, treats you the same way. You know, I we love each other, we want to be a team. Doesn't mean it can't like escalate and you can't get mad at each other. I mean, that happens in normal relationships. But is how do you feel after that conflict? Do you feel like, okay, you know, we got mad, we had it out, but you know, we both just have strong opinions, and then both of you are, you know, kind and caring afterward, and like, I'm sorry that happened, that shouldn't have happened. When it's a manipulative type of conflict, you will leave there feeling less of yourself. You will feel like you could never win, you will feel like possibly you could never get a word in edgewise, and you will feel like this thing is never resolved. As a matter of fact, it'll probably repeat over and over again. And if you feel like the only way to resolve a conflict in your relationship is to get smaller and quieter and not confront anymore, there's a problem because a healthy relationship, both people feel safe to confront. Even if you were raised in a home where confrontation was not your thing and not your family's thing, you still know that nobody's going to harm you emotionally or physically if you have to confront. Yes, they could get offended, sure, they could just get, you know, they might be sensitive and get their feelings hurt. But a healthy relationship, both sides know that we're still safe in the end. You know, so that's the most important. Do you feel safe having these conflicts?

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah. And I think also, too, that when you do have these conflicts and and it's a health, healthy relationship, both parties accept responsibility for what they did wrong in the situation. And if they don't, then that's a red flag. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

But I would say too that sometimes when a person has been caught and you think that you're in a moment, let's say, of cheating, or they've been hiding money or gambling addiction or whatever, they'll they'll tell you enough of, yeah, you're right, what I did was wrong. And then you're kind of like, oh, okay, we're getting somewhere. So you think maybe you're doing that conflict resolution thing and you walk away and you're like, okay, how does this look moving forward? But then maybe a year or so later, it it that pattern keeps coming back. So some of them are really good at admitting just enough to keep you dragged in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:15

Great point, Lizzie. And our ex was that. He was so good at, you know, crying and weeping. And I can't believe I did that, and I'm so sorry. And I, you know, I'll I know it hurt you. And, you know, I'm gonna admit now exactly what happened, and I'm gonna admit what I did. But again, it was never a full admission. Even the admission was just enough to make you feel like they were sorry, to make you feel like they were making it better. Even that was manipulation. So it can get really nuanced and tricky. And the only way to start figuring that out is through patterns over time. You start to see patterns emerge. And that's what makes it so difficult just to pack up and leave because you need time to process and see these patterns and see them for what they are. And if you don't get outside help, you're almost lost in this fog of confusion, you know?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah. I think I think that's a really good point right there. You absolutely have to get outside help. You cannot, it's not something that you can do alone. You need outside help and guidance.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

And I think too, sometimes people get really nervous to start talking about it when they need to process it because you get that, well, just leave. Oh my gosh, I can't believe you're sticking there. Which you're tangled in this relationship. You're vested, you may have children together, you may not financially be able to get out. So just leaving isn't the simplest thing to do. And then if there's a possibility of violence that you may not know, like erratic behavior, you got to think of a different exit plan to leave because then you could be in a very dangerous situation. For example, one of my good friends, uh, she she was actually talking to me. This happened, say, about 15 years, 16 years ago. And um, her son and my son were really good friends, and she had been telling me what she was experiencing with her with her husband because that point my first marriage was really, really bad. And so I always had a heart for women at that point already. And she could have changed her dialogue from if I leave to when I leave. And she we she would joke because she was very funny. She also was a little redhead with a lot of a lot of fire and and all of that. And she said, I'm gonna take this when I leave, I'm gonna take that when I leave, and so on and so on and so on. And then she texted me one day and she said, I found this place, it was pretty much right around the corner from where I lived, which was great because our kids could play together. Uh, it wouldn't be that long of a bike ride because they were in high school, middle school, and um, you know, I thought that's great. She said, Well, I'm moving out next this ne this weekend. And she said, My husband doesn't know, blah, blah, blah. I said, Great. And at that point, I was like, keep me posted as far as what you need for me. Um I'm there. And then one night, like a few nights later, she texted me. She said, My husband wants to talk to me tonight, and I think he knows something's going on. Would you pray for me? And I said, Absolutely. I really appreciate you keeping me in the loop and I'll keep praying. Please keep me posted. He killed her that night and then killed himself, leaving two young boys fatherless. Now, people don't realize they think domestic violence. I always say I hate the word domestic violence because we think violence not necessarily is that the case, it's those bruises that people cannot see that we need to be very, very cautious of. And that's why I feel like everybody should be educated with these types of things, because either you have a loved one, you have a family or a family member, friend that are in these situations, and we may be, and I know I at one point I probably would have said the same thing, just leave. I don't know why you would stay. Or you are going to be the perpetrator that are is causing that abuse, or you have been a victim, or you are in those situations. So I feel like everybody's gonna have a touch of someone in their life that are in these situations because four people die a day from domestic violence, and most of the time it's not because they saw physical violence, it was because when the abuser realizes that the victim was getting ready to leave, and they're very smart, they're very savvy, and they'll do what they can to keep them there, whether it's love bomb them to death, you know, charm them, whatever it takes, they'll try to do it. And then if they really see that they're losing that control, a lot of times it's not uncommon that some of them will just take take their life so they can't leave, and because they don't like the feeling of losing control. Yeah. So that's a little bit of the exit plan, but yeah. Just a little.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah. Yeah. That's that's what I went through when I uh left because I I've been through a toxic relationship before too. I was a teenager when it happened. And before I left, that it was to that point. He was he was literally choking me, and I literally thought, this is it. I'm dying. I'm not making it out. And then, since you ladies are believers, uh by the grace of God, I started praying while he was choking me. And a voice, I heard my mom's voice, even though she wasn't there with me, tell me that I needed to start singing. And so I just started singing Amazing Grace in my mind because I couldn't verbalize it because he was choking me. And as I started repeating that in my mind, his grip loosened, and I literally saw a bright light and the door opened, and I just jumped and ran and never looked back. And I know in my heart of hearts that that was God, and you know, the light had opened and allowed me to get out of that situation.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

So He definitely does that, and that is what a testimony in itself.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Yeah, it's powerful.

SPEAKER_05 35:21

Yeah. Wow. Wow, that's amazing on so many levels. Incredible, incredible.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah, so I I know it does happen like that. I mean, totally unexpected. You weren't expecting that that was gonna happen, then all of a sudden something snaps in them, and yeah, it happens before you know it.

SPEAKER_05 35:40

It's really true. And you know, sometimes you look at that person and you think, they couldn't, they would okay, they do this, this, this, this, you know, they get mad, they punch the wall, or they throw their remote, or they yell, you know, or they bow up at you, but they would never hurt me. Right. You know, but you're right, like when that push comes to shove comes, sometimes they literally just go, like their face changes, their eyes go blank, and something comes over them. And it's that's why you always have to be so cautious, like Lizzie said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah, exactly. And one of the things I hear so many survivors say, and I've said this uh to myself included, is I stopped trusting myself.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

You're absolutely right. I think, I think Dina and I, or at least I know I had put on one of our polls somewhere what was the hardest thing after the heat or in your healing process after a toxic relationship. And the highest, the highest percent was trusting myself or trusting again. And you do, and I know that I've struggled with that a lot as well because not only did I have one bad marriage, I had two, and I've had other dating relationships, and yeah, you can go, well, what was I? You know, you have to definitely reflect on yourself. You know, truthfully, before I with my first marriage, there was so much emotional and probably a little bit of physical, a lot of religious abuse. You name so leaving that was easy because it was so hostile. So when I thought I was healed, and then I started dating Rhett, I was looking through the lens of my first marriage when I was dating somebody, and I had someone come in and it was about the kids. It was, you know, it was just totally different. So you realize that there are so many ways that toxicity can come out, and that's why it's so important to educate yourself. And we have a book, we we had it, we did publish it, but we pulled it off because we're getting ready to republish it with a different book cover and everything. But it's pretty much love with eyes wide open, teaching our daughters to recognize red flags in God's voice in relationships. Because yes, hopefully as adults we're learning, but let's try to reach the generation gap. So hopefully we have less and less divorces, less and less heartache, young ladies, young women, even men, but this one's made for young ladies. But hopefully we can break some of this cycle of just this hell. I don't know other way to put it. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:15

I think go ahead, Ann. I was saying, you know, I I think a lot of women stay silent because they're embarrassed. It's shameful. They don't want anyone to know. And and they're blaming themselves the entire time. And then you have people saying, Why didn't she just leave? instead of asking what made it so hard to leave? What was it?

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Yeah. And I think too, you know, now in the last several years, especially, you're seeing more and more Gen X women and above who are leaving relationships because they're now realizing that they've been in these toxic relationships, you know, and they never knew it before. And I think that has a a lot of that has to do with society and the way our society has, or at least that generation, was taught about marriage and what how you're supposed to act, what you're supposed to do, you know, that kind of thing. It was we weren't really taught to be independent women and that we didn't necessarily have to have a man, and that when you're married, you know, it should be equal partnership, that kind of thing. It was more, you know, the man is the boss, you know, you you're for the man. You take as a woman, you're supposed to be taking care of everything, you know. And if you do something for yourself, that's selfish, that kind of thing. But we're now transitioning out of that. And the younger generations are not tied into those societal binds that we necessarily were.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Well said. Yes, absolutely. I couldn't have shared that any better.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

Yeah. Amen to that. And thank God for that too. I mean, and I know too, there's so much more information out there. And even in the faith-based community, you know, there's so much more information about how this is not what God says is okay. Just because we're married and because, you know, he's the man and he's the head, the head of the household or the head of anything, organization, church, their first role is service, is service with love. That's the role of being a leader, you know, is serving. And that's what Jesus came to do. He came to serve. He came to literally give his life, you know, for us. And that's what he called husbands to do as well. And so thankfully, that message is now out there to where, you know, we're we're not getting those mixed signals anymore where, you know, whatever he asks you to do, well, you know, he's he gets direct information from God, and you just have to follow or you're disobeying him. Or the other, you know, myth that was running around that divorce is a sin. Right. You know, so you know, you leaving a toxic environment or rescuing your children from a toxic environment now makes you the sinner. And by the way, you can't ever marry again. And there was just so much of that going around. So bad enough, you're dealing with this terrifying and abusive relationship. Now you've got all this like heavy guilt and shame and fear about what God's gonna think of it. So thankfully, a lot of that's been cleared up and it's really been so freeing for women and men.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. And the other thing I think that we don't talk about enough, though, is the financial abuse for people in these situations, and that that's one of the reasons why it is so hard for someone to leave.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah. Financial abuse, I know I I experienced that with both my husbands in different ways and forms. One could really say, well, God will provide our needs, and he would probably be willing to work just so that we could get something from a garden. And then you had another one that he couldn't keep two pennies in his pocket. And then I dated another guy, which I was attracted to was someone who was very careful with his money. Well, now I realize it was way of the extreme on the other side, you know, kind of like the Scrooge type of thing. So financial abuse hits. And the hard part when you had something like my first and second husband, well, Rex, my first husband, you they they kept you trapped that you can't leave, and that isolates you even more. And then to even tell your family, I don't have money to leave, and then sometimes you're dealing with more shame, more guilt, more humiliation, whatever. So it's just it's a horrible, horrible situation. And most likely, if there's a lot of financial poverty with people that could make good money, there's huge problems, and that's a huge red flag. I think Dina said it well, and I don't want to take what you told me years ago. That one time you talked with someone from the church, and like Dina had this like I don't want to say aura, but spirit of poverty because it was who she her ex was. And truthfully, Dina was already making that kind of good money before she left Rex and said no more, but it was still a struggle. And then now, you know, and then he was a struggle no matter which relationship he was in. It was just constant, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:44

We filed bankruptcy twice in that 27 years, and I did it once. And he did it a third time with Lizzie. So every 10 years, as soon as he was allowed to file bankruptcy, he would file bankruptcy. And the third time he did it, unfortunately, he took my credit in the toilet with him because. We weren't even married anymore. We've been divorced for a couple of years. But I didn't know that on the divorce papers, even if you separate the bills and he takes these and you take these, and the judge stamps it, that doesn't matter to the creditors. That does not hold up in law. So essentially, when he filed bankruptcy, all of a sudden they all came after me and I'd already paid off my half of the bills and finally for the first time in my whole life got my credit up. And some of those things that he that I gave to him were credit cards he took out in my name without me knowing. And I was like, oh no, buddy, I don't care if these are in my name. You're taking them because you false, falsified everything and got these credit cards in my name. Oh yeah. Then he just bankrupted them. And guess who I, you know, guess who they came after? And I just couldn't believe it. I was stunned. But before I even realized who's filing bankruptcy, he just stopped paying everything. And of course, Lizzie, she didn't know what was going on. But, you know, of course, the bankruptcy affected her because they were married, and then it affected me because the creditors, since they couldn't find me for a minute, just trash the credit because he just he quit paying in the meantime. Probably six months he didn't pay a dime. So yeah, financial abuse is devastating and terrible, and it can wreck your life for years after the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

And I was about to say it's it seems more devastating than as you after you leave than when you've been cheated on because it's a different type of scar that kind of like Dina says, it takes you longer to work through.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

Wow. So how does someone slowly lose their independence without even realizing that it's happening?

SPEAKER_05 45:42

You know, what I will say to that is that you had alluded to it earlier, ladies, that this happens so slowly. You know, you lose your independence, but it's because they love bomb you enough to where you give that away. You know, so it's really more about you giving it away than losing it because, you know, they're there, they want you to trust them. You know, trust me with the bills, I'll take care of it. You know, you can trust me with this. Sometimes they'll even encourage you to not work. You can just be home with the kids, you can take care of them, you know. I mean, you know, you can go to school if you want to, or they'll tell you not to go to school, or they'll tell you that God spoke to them about the family, you know, and the more and more that you give that away, the autonomy, the independence, your opinions, you know, your opinions start to get shut down and just not worth it, not worth expressing it, not worth disagreeing. None of that is worth it because they either disagree and they argue you down like a lawyer, or they get angry and then you feel intimidated. So it's just a slow, slow giving away more and more of who you are, what matters to you, what you hold dear, and you just start to blend into that person, you know, and then you just lose yourself.

SPEAKER_04 47:02

Ladies, I would like to do this again. I know you need to go. Real quick, where can our listeners find you and your amazing podcast?

SPEAKER_05 47:12

Honestly, just go to Surviving Toxic Relationships on any podcast platform, Apple, Spotify. You can also go to our website, Surviving Toxic Relationships, obviously in our YouTube channel and our public Facebook. And we were will probably be starting groups soon because we know that there's a need for women to be able to come together and talk about some of these topics and just have a safe space where they can bounce these things off of each other. So that will be starting soon, and then we'll have our books out soon as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 47:43

Thank you so much for being on the show today. It has been such a pleasure to meet you both. And today wasn't just about toxic relationships, it was about courage, about believing in yourselves, about choosing yourself, and about proving that even after betrayal, there can still be friendship, purpose, and joy. Thank you for trusting us with your story today.

SPEAKER_05 48:08

Thank you. What a privilege and an honor. Thank you, ladies. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Stay tuned for part two.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Travel time story, travel time story.