You Left the Toxic Relationship—Now How Do You Get Yourself Back? with Deana & Lizzie (Part 2)

SPEAKER_02 1:04

So, once again, let's welcome back the host of the award-winning podcast, Surviving Toxic Relationships, with the Matadoras, Dina and Lizzie for part two of our interview.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

We're so happy to be back, guys. We were so excited to finish this whole journey. Just yeah, it just felt completely unfinished. So this is perfect. Exactly for us too.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

So I want to ask questions. I think so many women quietly ask themselves, not because they're weak, but because they're scared. No, we're all scared of the unknown, right? Absolutely. How do you know when you've crossed the line from working on a marriage to surviving one?

SPEAKER_05 1:49

Wow. That's a really good question. Well, okay. So here's what I think. Um when you're working on a marriage, it's gonna feel like you're working with your partner. And so you're gonna feel that mutuality. So, you know, if there's a disagreement, if there's an argument, if there's something that's tension between the two of you, you're gonna feel like that person actually wants to work it out and that they care about you being just as happy as they are. And that's a dynamic in general of a healthy relationship. When you start feeling like it, it's one-sided, you know, and most of us pleasers in relationships, we're just like, well, as long as you're happy, I'm happy. I don't really care. So it can be hard to discern, you know, that that line. Cause if you're just the one that goes along with, okay, you want to watch football? Okay, sure. You want to eat Mexican, sure, it's fine. I don't, I'll. But when there's disagreement and there's tension and there's things like that, there should feel like, you know, again, the mutuality versus they want to win. They want to be right, you know, and it starts to feel like they don't really care what the consequences are, or they don't really care if you're hurting, or they're dismissing you, or they're punishing you. That's another big sign. So, you know, if you get in a disagreement, or let's say you literally just challenge what they said, or you don't agree, or you say, you know what, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that, or I'm not comfortable with that. If you get punished when there's a disagreement, or when you say no and they dismiss you, they ignore you, or they roar and yell at you, but they're withholding something or being aggressive to, you know, force you into compliance or make sure you know that what you wanted from them or what you disagreed with is wrong. And that really tips over into some very unhealthy dynamics. And that's when you know you're not in a healthy relationship.

SPEAKER_04 3:44

And also some of the things that if you have someone that will say, you know, you're right, I need to work on that, and then their their pattern shows continually the opposite. And we've observed over time with other women too, it's the pattern that they continually decide to not change to but make it a partnership, even if they give you promises. If they if they say one thing but they do another, always trust the action, don't just trust their words.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Well said. Very well said. Such good advice, ladies.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

What if you've been together for 30 or 40 years? Does that make it harder to leave emotionally? Do you think?

SPEAKER_04 4:30

I don't know if go ahead, Dina.

SPEAKER_05 4:32

Yeah, I don't necessarily know that just time in the relationship in itself makes it harder emotionally. I think what really makes it hard emotionally is the trauma bonding, the incredible dynamic where, you know, you literally are starved for affection or attention or encouragement. So you're starved for it. And then when they give you little bits of it, you're starving for it. And it just feels amazing. And so it creates that complete trauma bond where you are always needing their validation, their attention. Nobody else is gonna do. But I will say, I think what happens when you've been in the relationship for 30 or 40 years, all these other dynamics come into play. So a lot of ladies that are older that Lizzie and I know in this situation, now it's like, I mean, I'm this age, you know, why should I start over? You know, I'm too old for that. You hear that. Um, you know, now I have kids and grandkids too. And what am I supposed to go blend another family? Or, you know, if I get married, are they gonna inherit what I have, you know, or or to want half of it. And so it just you develop a lot of other dynamics, I think, the longer you've been in the relationship. But I do think the emotional bond can be extremely strong at any, you know, at any place in the relationship, really, time-wise. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

Well, I think we have observed that gray divorce is a huge, has it is has a huge influx these days. It's the people that have been in for 30 plus years, and here they are now at a stage of past, you know, midlife, like Dina said, they could be grandparents, uh, you know, lots of years, lots of trauma bonding. And I think we have also observed that many of them, it's the financial component that really holds them back. What kind of quality of life will I have if I leave now? And I I've I've seen it, I know Dina's seen it, we've seen it many times, where if a person is in that relationship, no matter how many decades you've been in that marriage, you will get through if that is holding you back for a person that's in their after 30, 40 years of marriage, you will get back if you find a good community or whatever else. That may be going above and beyond what you were asking. But I think all of those factors are important because it is scary, I think it's incredibly scary. I had a divorce, Dean and I both got divorced in midlife, but it's just uh there's so many more factors. I can't rebound as quickly as I could as I was in my 30s. I can't, you know, I can't imagine separating the holidays with my kids and you know, sharing it with their dad and me and her their other in-laws. There's just so many other dynamics, and there's a feeling of feeling lost that's different too because your kids are grown and gone gone most of the time at that stage after that many years. And so your role as a woman tends to be really difficult. And I'm talking about as a woman just because I I is one, but it's really, really difficult to really transition that emotionally. But over time, and whether it was guests that we've had on our podcast through so many great observations, those women have come back and said, I survived, I did it, and I am so glad that I did. So those are kind of the dynamics we see.

SPEAKER_05 8:03

Yeah, and really quick too, uh, I've known two ladies in my life that were like, I'm too old to date again. I'm too old to start over again. You know, like who's gonna want me at this age? And let me tell you something, that is not true because I I know several people that have started over, and one of them was like 88 years old. It was a patient of mine. And literally, like his first wife was so mean. Every time they'd come in the office, she was so mean. And she ended up passing away. And he came in one day glowing like a Christmas bulb, and he had this little cute lady on his arm who was so kind. And, you know, for whatever time they had left, they were just so happy. And I remember my aunt, who's 80 also, told me, she said, you know, if I could find a loving, you know, relationship, she's like, even for one day to be loved like that would be worth it.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Yeah, yeah. I agree. But also, don't you think that you don't necessarily have to find or go into another relationship? Oh, that it's quite all right to leave the relationship and just be on your own and and be okay with that.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

100% because that's where I'm like that's why Dina and I really feed off each other well because she did remarry, whereas in I'm single, and to be quite honest, I I'm good with it. You're good with it. But I'm also not close to the idea, but it's not a desire that's burning in me that I've got to find or you know, explore that option of my life. I'm getting ready to explore this incredible journey and adventure, and who knows? I could meet somebody, but I could meet just wonderful men and women that are my new friends in this new life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Yeah. And then I just want to touch on this too, because uh I know I told you ladies last time, but uh I have a book that is about to come out, and it's a women's fiction book, and it's titled Wrong Turns, Right People. And that book specifically is about how the love of a platonic relationship with a friend can be more important and more impactful than you know a relationship which between you and you know, a man or woman or whatever, but you know, just a platonic friendship relationship. And it's loosely based on mine and Ann's friendship and our relationship and our desire that, you know, our hope is that once our husbands are gone, that she and I will just have a little house somewhere together and just grow all together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:52

Absolutely. That's why all those TikTok videos are just blowing up with these two little older best friends that are doing hilarious and fun things. I mean, if you don't have a desire to remarry, don't like don't remarry, like enjoy your life, whatever that looks like. I mean, absolutely 100%. You do not need to be in a romantic relationship to be happy unless your heart says you do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

And that's the one thing we are created, I believe, for relationships. But it like it can be very platonic. It's just we need those connections with other people. And that's why toxic relationships is having our title surviving toxic relationships is so impactful because it also includes who are you gonna let in the nucleus of your life. Because those people need to be very special, it needs to be guarded so you feel safe emotionally, physically, however, that works. Because we probably all had a toxic friend that probably brought us down a whole lot more than we realized until we finally stepped out of that friendship.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Yeah, exactly. So for someone go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

No, you go first. I'll I'll save mine.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

I was just gonna say for someone that is in that long rela or has been in that long relationship, and it's a toxic relationship, and the financial aspect of it is part of their fear or whatever, you know, they're dependent or being manipulated financially, where does someone like that begin? What first steps should they take?

SPEAKER_05 12:27

Yeah, so Lizzie and I always say this, and I think we're gonna probably have close to the same answer, but really if you realize that you're in this kind of a relationship, even if you're not sure where it should go, whether it should end or not end, just start quietly putting money away, you know, to try to make a long-term goal and have a little money stashed in it. That means you might have to pick up some part-time work here and there. You know, you might have to be quiet about it, but really try to kind of, you know, get those finances in order. If it comes down to one of those things where you're in a relationship, you're a stay-at-home mom, you don't have means, they control the money because that does happen too. At that, you know, point, um, it's gonna be really, really important to kind of identify who your friends are and who your family is that could take you in if they needed to temporarily. And then, you know, there are always programs. So just, you know, looking up programs that might be out there, even if you have to stay in a shelter for a while, if it's bad. And it doesn't have to be physical abuse. It can be emotional, verbal, sexual. It can be any kind of abuse that you can stay for a while and be safe and unseen, and then kind of go from there. But that's kind of the best you can do is just first prioritize your safety no matter what, because you can always make money as long as you're alive, right? You can always take care of your kids as long as you're alive, but find a safe place temporarily and then from that point one day at a time.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

Yeah. And and it's really good to do comb through your credit report. Dean and I, since we shared the same X, he opened a credit card in my name and he opened a credit card in Dina's name. Well, if he knows our social security number, well, with you probably more than 27. No, yeah, okay. I wasn't going to interrupt, I was just saying. Yeah, I mean your hand signal's like I know that also make sure you know what's in your credit report. Because when I left our shared X, I couldn't even get an apartment because he destroyed my credit. And so it's it's really becoming financially aware. And it means that we have to be more assertive if you're used to taking the backseat and letting someone have control of the finances because that is financial abuse. And there's things that come out that you had no idea, bills that weren't being paid that you were told were being paid. And either you're given a little allowance or just a credit card and you can't even grab cash. That's that's huge. And that is someone who's trying to isolate you financially. And it is like Dina said, it's like finding a part-time job somehow, somehow. Dashing that money away is so critical, no matter how old you are. But I think we need to have I don't think we need to have that confidence that we are going to be okay. I can put a little bread in my belly if I'm hungry, or gas and gas ink, and that community, as Dina said, really grab that community. Dina and I both observed, and I know even just recently a friend, but it you also need to know your friends because you don't know if they can turn around and bite you in the butt.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Yeah, that's true. That's true. So, what if your only option if you leave is to stay with your adult children until you can get on your feet financially?

SPEAKER_05 15:53

I don't I don't think that's an issue because I feel like those little boogers, we put so much time and energy and money into them. It's the least they can do. I think it can definitely get complicated if, you know, your kids are now wondering if they should take sides. Now they're like, oh my gosh, would that be being disloyal to dad? Like what, you know, what would that look like? So, you know, obviously you're gonna have to gauge the atmosphere that your kids are in, but unless there's a toxicity with the kids or there's a real true problem, kind of, you know, and and also I think a lot of women forget this that really all you need to do is get into a situation where you can be okay until whatever assets you share can be taken care of, you know, can be split. If you have a house together, if you have nicer items together, if there's a 401k or any kind of pension or anything that you have or that even he has, you know, and as long as you've been married a long enough time, then, you know, you can get that. Or you might be able to get alimony, or you might be able to get child support. So, really truly, like you're not trying to find a long-term solution. You're trying to get somewhere to be safe and be okay. Maybe even you just need to think straight. Like sometimes women just need to get away from this gaslighting because they cannot think straight with that voice and the attitude and the control. So get away for a time and then please try to be the first person. If you are going to file papers for divorce, I'm not saying you have to, but you can also file for legal separation. Either way, be the first one to do that. Because if you wait and then you just leave, you know, and you don't do anything, any kind of paperwork at all. Um, and you can even go to a pair legal to start the process. And that's way less expensive. But at least get something on paper, get them served, because at that point, assets can be frozen. If you've got everything in both of your names, either one of you can just go sell it. You know, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a lot, you know, obviously you'll need a signature if it's a house. But what I'm saying is he can just get rid of that 401k if it's not in your name and you know, you have nothing to do with it, and you know, or that life insurance policy that was in both of your name. I mean, there's things to that they can sell. So try to be the first one to jump on that and and secure, secure your future if you're able to.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Because you have to establish a date. Is that the reason for that? For the assets to be frozen.

SPEAKER_04 18:27

Yeah, that's that is one of the aspects. It's like the minute you file that too, you are showing we are legally separated. Now I know not all states have legal separation. California, because we live here, they have legal separation. But just do whatever it takes at that point because you want to freeze as much as you can. He is now, he or she is now accountable for any money that's being spent or money leaving. That's why really knowing that financial component is really important. I would also encourage, along with trying to stash money away if you ever get to that point, is you want money for a lawyer if you could. Because especially if there's a lot of assets and a lot of a financial abuse, because the minute you walk out that door, we have absorb observed time and time again where women will say, I lost, I I was tied out of everything. And so therefore I couldn't get a lawyer. I wasn't I didn't work outside of the home. There were so many components that really disabled them. Whereas if they had a financial emotional awareness, they probably would have been able to be a lot more successful. And so those are their missions now to share it with people. Make sure you understand these things. And and also if you file first, not only does it help you the financial component, but a lot of times you are the first you are the person you're the person that first gets to decide stuff a lot of times. Not always. But I know, especially with divorces with children, it's it can very be very impactful.

SPEAKER_05 19:59

Mm-hmm. Very impactful to be the one that files first, yeah. Because it's like this, it's like you, it's like you file and then they have to sort of counter, you know, counter what you've what you've said that you that you wanted, you know, but at least it's put something official in motion. And I know that probably went way off the rails with you asking about staying with the kids. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Actually, that is excellent information. Uh okay. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

And would you would you also recommend that if you're able to, because I know not everybody would be able to do this, but for those who are able to do it, if you currently have a joint checking account to open your own separate account and start putting money into that account.

SPEAKER_04 20:43

Yep. And actually, I I don't know how Dina, but I would recommend a whole different bank. So that way it's you know, so it's completely separate, completely. I mean, if you're at that point of needing to make sure you have that kind of stuff just financial security, then you already know there's lots of layers there. You already know there's a deep rooted problem. And so that's why doing that in such a way that keeping it as silent as possible, keep it as hidden as possible, and obviously it means you've got to figure out that bank statements don't come to the house, you know? And that's sad. That's sad to say, because marriage to me is something you share. You you're open about everything, but when you're in that place, like we've learned people know way before they finally get to that point of being done.

SPEAKER_05 21:30

Yeah. And the thing is, is that, you know, in case any woman out there doesn't know this, you probably haven't seen at all the worst of your partner or what they're capable of until you walk out that door or you file those papers. That is when they do things that you were like, wow. I mean, I knew that there were problems, I knew there were issues, or I even knew they had an anchor problem, or I knew they were, you know, were dishonest and, you know, a cheater. But you do not know the half of it until they no longer. Need you. You no longer serve a purpose. You no longer feed their emotional cravings. When they don't really need you anymore, I tell you what, all they care about is they want their money and they want, you know, they don't, you can, you can just disappear. And so it can get really bad. It's very rare to have a nice, amicable divorce. And that's why being the first one to get out there, file those papers, get those assets to where they can't sell without being contempt of in contempt of court. You know, and then like Lizzie said, you know, if there's, and you said, Shannon, if there's a joint account, if there's money that you can take with you before you go, be fair about it, take half of it, you know, and whatever else you can and that's yours that might have value if you can with safely, but act now because I tell you, you know, that person is going to want first thing they're gonna think about is money.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Yeah, and they're gonna do things that you never dreamed in a million years they would do. You in in your mind, because especially if you've been in a long-term relationship with somebody for many, many years, in your mind, you think you know them, and you think, oh, they would never do that because they haven't up till this point trust when they know you're out the door. That's when that kind of stuff starts happening.

SPEAKER_05 23:23

I mean, I've never not I've never not seen that happen. I've never not seen that happen every single time. You know, it's like wow, I I would have never thought this. I mean, I knew there was a low, but I didn't know you could go that low.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

That's terrifying.

SPEAKER_05 23:37

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

It's yeah, it's it's just terrifying.

SPEAKER_05 23:42

Yeah, if they have a temper now, expect that to increase a hundredfold. If they have a money problem, if they have an honesty problem, you know, if they have a problem of caring about you, you expect that to go on steroids. You just have to. And so protect yourself in whatever way that that presents to you.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

And in your lady's opinion, if you and your partner currently own a home that's paid for and you decide to leave because you know, you've now realized you're in this toxic relationship and you're getting out, would you just say, Oh, we'll just let him have the whole house?

SPEAKER_04 24:17

Heavens no. No.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Thank you. Thank you. Amen to that.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

Even if they were the ones that stayed home to take care of the home, I am a firm believer that it's it's it's both of yours because you put blood, sweat, and tears. It may not have been the money component, but it definitely was the physical, emotional, and the heart and soul component. And that's 50-50, and that is only fair. I think I've I know I've seen, I know Dina has seen where people get to the point where they get so burned out of the fight because the other person is so mean that you're just like, I'm willing to give up everything because I've got to get out from underneath this. And a lot of it is because they they thought, oh, he won't do that, or she won't do that, and blah, blah, blah, like Dina was just talking about. It all it most likely will happen. And if you get to that point where you are leaving, you have a house that is fully paid for, and all of a sudden that person starts to fight very mean, very, very expensively. If you could have prepared yourself before this happens, you will be a lot better prepared for the whole process and what could happen. It's always better in these types of scenarios to plan kind of for the worst. And if it doesn't happen, then thank God. It's it's a it's a win-win. But if you think, oh, they won't ever do it, like Dina was saying, I've been amazed at how many people have thought, oh, that would never happen. They would never do that. But they do, it's like they are on steroids and they're like, oh, I'm gonna be as I'm gonna get back at you. And so yeah, don't ever give up if you but if it comes that point where the fight is too hard, too painful, you realize I will figure it out somewhere else. That's the point you probably do need to let go because the healing is the the pain is too raw and you're ready to heal.

SPEAKER_05 26:05

And if you can't do it for yourself, ladies, and I know there's a lot of ladies out there that are like, you know what, I'm exhausted, I just want out. Do it for your children. Do it for your children, you know. I mean, even if your kids are older, even if your kids are college age and beyond, you know, do it for them. You know, get half of what you put into that relationship and then help them out with all the things they're going through. Because the last thing you need to be is a broke single mom. You know, like do not leave the relationship like that. Don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

What is one mistake women make after deciding they're done?

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Staying, trying to fight harder, trying to work harder, trying to make change themselves to fit their other partners, trying to think, is it me? Did did I say something? Did I do anything? Yeah, so staying.

SPEAKER_05 26:54

Yeah, yeah, staying. Um that's about that's about the biggest one I could think of. I th so many women are like, I'm done, but then you know, all of a sudden he's a little bit nicer because the the weird thing about these relationships is they can sniff out when you've when you're done. They really can. And it's either because yeah, exactly like a hound dog, because you know, you're you're no longer or your buttons aren't being pushed as much. Like they can't like push a button and piss you off, or push a button and make you cry, or push a button and make you happy, bring you a bouquet, and you're like, you know, they're they no longer have this push-pull control over you. And when they start sensing that, uh, yeah, they're they're gonna start, they're gonna start gearing up, you know. So yeah, it's very important, you know, to be able to understand that they're gonna they're gonna figure that out and you just have to be aware of that.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Yeah, it's like a roller coaster ride. You'll you know, it goes up and it's great, and then boom, it goes back down, and then next thing you know, it's going back up again. And you know, you have to get off the ride. Like, do you want to stay on there and keep going through the up and down, up and down, or do you want to get off the ride?

SPEAKER_05 28:08

Shannon, that is exactly what I said in my last relationship. I said, I feel like I am buckled in on a crazy wild roller coaster ride that I did not choose and it won't stop. I mean, it's it's it's exhausting, it's jolting. It's your nervous system is a disaster and your health becomes a disaster too.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

Well, and also it's it's gonna, I mean, it's okay to look at it and say it's gonna be hard to stay and it's gonna be hard to go. But how long will it be hard to go once you get past the hurdles and the healing versus if you stay, it's gonna be because the pattern has never changed, it it won't change. That person has to be willing to put in the work and you know, roll up their sleeves and put their poop boots on and dive in and work on themselves as you're trying to work through yourself. But it's gonna be hard either way, but think which one will I have a better time with the later down the road.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Yeah, that's a good point. Very good point. So, how do you support a person who's in a toxic relationship? If you have a friend, family member, whatever, how do you support that person?

SPEAKER_05 29:19

I know Lizzie's got some really good points because Lizzie's passion really is supporting other people, you know, it's like she wants she wants every podcast and every piece of information to not just be for the person in the relationship, but for those people supporting them. And I love that. And I know she's got more to share than me, but I'll just say simply, just listen to them. Really listen and and believe what they're telling you, you know, and be supportive. They may want your advice, and if they do, be honest. You know, don't try to sugarcoat it like to to guard their feelings, you know, or you know, tell them what they want to hear. If they're if they if they're thinking they should leave or they're terrified, you know, give them the truth. Just say, you know what, I'm sorry, I this is the truth. If you really want it, I feel like this person is very toxic for you. You've changed. You're not the same person you used to be, and I've noticed it and it hurts.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

There's there's and and as Dina was saying, it's it's being truthful, but realize also to that they are already dealing with shame and guilt on overload and steroids. They have guilt because they couldn't make their you know, their marriage worked, they're guilty about leaving their kids, you know, just separating the family. And then the shame that they're there. Because a lot of times when a person, a lot of family members, they think what they're saying, I can't believe you're gone back again. Because the average person will leave a toxic relationship, a toxic partner approximately seven times before they finally say, I cannot handle one more time. Dina left, I think it was nine times. I left about six times with my first marriage. I left once on my second marriage. It was like, yeah, I'm good, I'm done. I've been through once. And those are so impactful for someone who needs to support them. Because the best gift you could give is the fact that you're going to be patient with them. You are going to be honest, but also giving them that support of knowing the good exit plan. Hey, look, you know, let's go ahead and plan this exit. Doesn't mean you have to leave, but let's go ahead and figure a way to stash your money. Let's figure a way to, you know, if you need to get another job or whatever it takes, it's having that community. Okay, if you have to leave in the dead of night, you text me or you call me and you we have a safe work and I will come get you. I will drop everything to be there. And I think we had a a therapist one time that just said just something like grocery shopping. Something so simple that only you as a friend, the supporter, will know because those are very impactful because they could leave in the dead of night with you and go back two days later. But the problem is those people will come to the point that they can't take it one more time and they will do the final exit. So also if you are a caretaker or love someone deeply that are in these situations, you also have to take care of yourself because you're gonna have to not get so tied up in the point that if they do go back, you're like, I I'm done with you. I'm gonna wash my hands of you because they don't the victim does not understand all the emotions that they're dealing with. It does not make sense to them. They know that this person is toxic, but then this person knows how to pour their love bombing, their gas light, whatever whatever it is, they know what triggers their victims. And that's really hard to untangle because you're also looking at at the victim who also is in extreme uh brain fog. And you get to a point where you're numb. And then if you have young kids, you're like, well, I don't really want to do this by myself. It's so overwhelming. Because that's what got me to go back. Like, I don't want to raise these kids by myself. I didn't have four children to raise them by myself. But needless to say, I know it frustrated people when they saw me go back. And I I know Dean and probably went through the same thing, but it's it's part of being in that victim cycle, and that's why the more uh education that supporters could have, the better, because you're gonna either be a victim, you're gonna be the perpetrator, or you're gonna support someone you love very deeply who is in an abusive relationship, and that's why in my mind, everybody should be knowledgeable. Everybody, like, okay, we could take the we could take the perpetrators out. But the victims need to start understanding early on, not that they know they'll be victims, but the more educational we can get out there, the better. That's why I don't like the word domestic violence, because domestic violence has that negative connotation, right? We think that the domestic violence is gonna, I'm gonna walk away with bloody bruises and bluddy looking.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

It's all physical, right?

SPEAKER_04 34:01

Yeah, right, but it's not, and I if I've shared this before with y'all, you've heard it. I've had a friend, a very close friend, who was uh planning to leave her husband, and it got to the point where she would say, If I leave, I I'm gonna take this, this, this. And then it got to the point where when I leave, I'm going to take this, this we were she would joke about, she had a great sense of humor. And you know, we giggled about it, but she's like, I'm I'm leaving. I just have to figure out how because they were the same thing, financials tied up, two kids. And then one day she texted me, she goes, Hey, I found this place to live, and it's right around the corner from you. I was really excited because my uh second oldest was really close to her oldest, so they always like to do stuff together, and that's how she and I met. But about a couple of days later, she texted me and she said, Hey, pray for me. My husband wants to talk tonight, and I think he knows something is going on. I said, Well, thank you for letting me know. I'll keep for keep and thank you for keeping me in the loop. Please keep me updated and I'll be praying for you. I had no idea the next day he or that night he killed her and then took his own life, and her son walked in and found them the next morning. But that goes to show we never know. Don't think because we don't see the bruises on the outside, he never hit her, he never physically abused her. It was all emotional. And so when he realized he was losing control, he took her life. So a child two young boys at that point lost not just their mother, but they lost their dad because he took his life. Not that they probably wouldn't want anything to do with him after that, anyway. Right, but it was to show the impact and why it's so important that we understand not all of it is gonna be that way, but four people die a day from domestic violence. You have three women and one man a day. And a lot of times it's not because of bruises on the outside. So, yeah, it's that awareness. I wish we could come up with a different term besides domestic violence. I don't know if that'll ever happen, but I think we need to look outside of the box and say it's not about violence, it's it's a lot deeper than that. Yeah, as Dina said, Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

I I agree with that 100%. We should definitely come up with a better a better word for that than domestic violence. And also that that goes to show what we talked about before that you know, this person had never been physically violent ever before up until that point, and then just snapped and went totally off the deep end. Well, so yeah, it can matter.

SPEAKER_04 36:37

She was feisty too. I mean, she was a feisty individual, she wasn't mean or anything, and she was incredibly funny. So, you know, you think that she could have hold held her own, but it doesn't matter. And if I was aware enough when she sent me, I think he he knows something is going on and wants to talk to me. If I was aware, I could have said, Don't you dare, I'm coming to get you. If you're gonna talk to him, you're gonna have you're gonna be out of the house and you're gonna he's not gonna know where you are, and you're gonna have the boys with you. That's what that's what I would have done today. So I hope by spreading the word, that's that's what we could do is protect these people so we can take that four people a day and narrow it down, you know. Man, I'd love to see it down to three. I'd love to see it down to one, then none. That would be beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Exactly. Yeah, would be. And that's another good point, too. That after if and when you do leave and they, you know, reach out to you wanting to meet up to talk or whatever, do not meet up with them on your own alone.

SPEAKER_05 37:42

Yep, one hundred percent. And I would even say, you know, if they're crazy enough, even if you take a friend with you, like that might not be enough. So exactly. You can meet on the phone, you can meet on Zoom, you can meet anywhere. You do not need to meet in person with your ex who is now furious about you leaving. You do not know what this person is. Matter of fact, they probably don't even know what they're capable of, to be honest. Right.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:04

And some experts say that you should have a point person anyway. That if you you need to have that total step away where you are not getting tied into any conversation, you're not getting tied in any type of communication because that's how we get hoovered back in. Great work, right? Hoovered back into that same cycle of a relationship because they know how to work the system or they can get violent. It's it's usually one or the other. And so they say that some experts will say take time where you are not in any communication and find someone who is willing to be the point person, which means they take care of the text between you and them and the spouse. Because a true abuser, unless they're incredibly violent, they will not let the other person see who they are. They don't want that mask to come off, they don't want them to see that yet. Even though that person is there, they don't want them to see it. So it's best to really remove yourself, and that's a hard one, especially when you have kids, and that's why having that third person to kind of okay, your turn to have the kids, but that also says a lot, you gotta have that good support system again. Here we go back to that word circling over.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Yeah, exactly. So, ladies, when you finally got out, what surprised you the most? That was a really good question.

SPEAKER_05 39:23

You know, I think for me, I already knew he was pretty unhinged because he would threaten to commit suicide a lot when I left, you know, or I'd threatened to leave and he'd threatened suicide. I knew I knew he was pretty unhinged, but I really didn't think I would be afraid of him because I really wasn't afraid of him. I mean, I would get a little afraid when he would roar, you know, like you know, get mad if I if I dared told the truth or I dared confront him or I dared to disagree. He would get so angry. But as we talked to before, he never hit me, he never, you know, when at one time he did give me a shove, and I was actually on a set of icy stairs holding one of our babies, and he gave me a little shove. But like it was so isolated over 27 years, I could count maybe three or four times where he threw a remote or gave me a little shove, or you know, the rest of it was just roaring and trying to like be angry and intimidating. But I really didn't expect him to get this unhinged when we, you know, when we separated, where I actually got, you know, a security system around the house and you know, and you know, he was just so off the walls emotional. One minute he's screaming and yelling at me over the phone. The next minute he's you know crying and sobbing. He would show up at church, you know, in the parking lot where I was, he would show up my work. You know, it was like, you know, back then, I mean, that was a long time ago. I didn't know what this was. I just was like, why are you you're following me? You're you know, then then he'd be love bombing like flowers and roses and bags and promises. And I should have just gone gray rock, but nobody knew what gray rock was at that time. But yeah, that's probably what surprised me the most. Again, like you see, you see your person in a really new light, whatever their stuff was then, it's gonna hike up and you're gonna be like, who is this?

SPEAKER_01 41:12

So gray rock. What does that term mean?

SPEAKER_05 41:16

Gray rock is when you become unable to be controlled. I'll put it that way. So, for instance, let's say you share kids together, okay? And you know, you now you you know, you you're trying to like share custody with the kids. Gray rock is we have to communicate, we can't not communicate because we're now hinged with children. But I'm gonna be polite, professional, courteous, and that's it. There won't be any long conversations. You will not bait me into disagreeing or getting defensive or fighting with you. You know, you won't, you know, love bomb me to where I'm listening to how sad you are and how you can't live without me and all the problems. You know, you won't get to call me up and call me names and yell at me. You know, you won't get to threaten me, right? I'm gonna take everything away from you, or I'm taking these kids. You don't get to do any of it because Gray Rock is I don't respond to you. And we keep it everything very tight, concise, short. And these buttons are they don't work anymore. You can't push a button and I get mad, push a button, I get sad, push a button, I get scared. So we keep it professional. And if you start going off the rails on a conversation, this phone hangs up. So that's great, Rock, because a narcissist or an abuser or anybody who has manipulated you for all these years, they're gonna get probably more angry at first because they can't believe they can't control you and they it freaks them out, but they're gonna give up over time. You know, the narcissist that just likes to piss you off because they enjoy that stuff, or a sociopath or psychopath, even worse, if they just enjoy giving, you know, causing you pain, they're gonna get bored because they can't they can't do it anymore. So they're gonna move on to another cat toy, you know. But you know, expect for for a lot of them, it'll be a little increase in the control and they'll keep trying different ways. But eventually they'll realize like you're done and they don't have any more control. And it's a beautiful way to keep the insides, they'll react. You can't help it, can't help the emotional reactions that are going on inside. But this right here is like the perfect way to take back your power and the most beautiful boundary.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

I love that. Was healing what you expected?

SPEAKER_05 43:29

Yes, and no.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

I healing, healing, I I think can be now, as we have observed, it's the hardest part of the whole process. You think exiting is, but healing, there is no cookie cutter, just like you know, your spouse or whatever, your partner. And so for me, I think my healing after my second divorce, because that was more of a gray divorce, and my kids were all grown and gone. So my busyness of young kids. wasn't there at the second time. And I was living in a state I didn't know a lot of people. So healing had to come in waves. It had to come in a lot of waves. And I would get through a season, a moment, and I think, okay, we got through this. And then it bubbles up again and then you have to get through it. And I did a lot of journaling at that time. But over time that you begin to heal you have to work on it. You have to face it. You have to be willing to walk through some of the grief. Most of the time if if someone is puts it under a rug and they try to work or just be busy about it. That's not true healing. Healing is really having to sit, I believe, most of the time in the quiet and reflecting to the point of letting yourself and your heart and your soul grieve it. Learn how to process through it. Whether it's like having a therapist, a good I do, a good life coach, whatever it is, a good family friend, church it's definitely a longer process. But then you find out your reactions or those emotions that bubble up and become farther and farther between they're not as close together as they were in the beginning. It's just sometimes you think you're fine and then two years later someone said or reacted in such a way and you just blew it out of the gasket. And you're like, where did that come from? Whether you're crying in emotional or you're you're out in anger. But yeah I think that's still part of the healing process. So thank goodness we don't heal everything at once. I think it's healthy to kind of let it take over time. The goal is that you don't stay in that victim mentality and the other is not to be angry. But I think those emotions are very normal process. It's just that we don't stay stuck in anyone.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:54

So what part of yourself came back first? What part of myself came back first oh my goodness. I think my self-confidence came back first actually I had been I didn't you know I didn't even know I I was always a really self-confident young lady. Of course I married really young. But I was always very like I mean I had my I had my insecurities because you know I was poor and you know picked on a lot things like that. But by the time I started getting to 16, 17, I kind of started liking who I was and and you know had this bubbly happy personality and people liked me and it was like okay and I started working and I'm you know you know what I mean all that. And so you just get confidence and you just now you start liking yourself and then somewhere along the way in this relationship without even realizing it like you I don't know if you don't like yourself or you don't even know who you are anymore or you don't like who you are with this person. It the it's a dynamic right but yeah I think that's the first thing that came back was I I began to well for the very first was like just this freedom, this incredible freedom even though of course you you're grieving the family. I mean for me it wasn't the relationship because it was awful but it was grieving the family. We created a family together and now you know all those things that you dreamed in your later years of of you know being at the wedding and being at the baby shower and holding your grandchild and all the things you worked so hard for and especially if you're the one trying to hold it together. You worked so hard for those. But but anyway I think I think that a sense of incredible freedom not about knocked me down because I was like I could breathe in my home there was nobody there that walked in the door and I immediately had dread and anxiety of what kind of mood would they be in. That was the first one. And then just slowly like you know you'd surround yourself and with people that you know do it for you. You know what I mean? That like love you and care about you and give back. They don't take and so what I discovered though was that my filter was so broken that many of my friends were also very dysfunctional. You know they were just the take take take take take all day long. And boy it took a few years before I realized how many people in my life were really toxic people not just my spouse and my kids even were like mom we told you those people were weird. Why did you we told you why'd you stay with them? And I was like I don't know I just my filter is broken for everything. The churches I chose were awful and whacked out and weird. I mean I just you know my filters were a disaster so anyway so it's like by the time you get to the other side and you have this circle of people who are healthy and they're wonderful and they, you know, and you they breathe life into you. And of course you know with my husband you know my second husband was just the most wonderful little prince in the world and it it heals you in in an amazing way to have people in your life that are wonderful and it gives you a better view of the world that are are good people out there. There are good husbands there are good wives there are really good people. You just had a terrible magnet filter you attracted all the moths you know I agree.

SPEAKER_04 49:01

Freedom freedom is huge. And I love to have a little bit of adventurous spirit I think I had that after both of my divorces and when you realize that you probably were married to an emotional vampire that sucked that all that out you love that freedom I I think it's I don't have to hold everything accountable to somebody else. And there's I mean that's beautiful too it's just I realized that they weren't a healthy accountability. It was pretty much what they wanted not what I needed.

SPEAKER_05 49:35

So you know and I think it's really important to note anybody out there listening that you're gonna go through withdrawals at first it's like crack. I mean I've never done crack but I can imagine the withdrawals from crack or heroin you know or one of those like Oreos for me. Right. I don't want to ever go without Oreos but anyway the point is is that you are going to go through withdrawals and it's you're gonna have these intense emotional reactions, right? One minute you'll be sobbing like what did I do? You know, you'll think about like well there's this baby shower for our daughter coming and now it's gonna be weird and now what what and the the kids are upset and you know and then there's this weird awkwardness with you know both of you being at an event for your kids and it just there's some grieving and there's some adjustment and there's some weirdness and there's some hardness and your emotions will be all over the place and that one minute you'll be like I should call them I want to maybe I should go back because you're feeling alone the house is quiet and at least they did this for you. They cooked dinner for you whatever it's gonna be a lot of things but I promise you if you just give yourself time hang on to the other side and please remember and write down every reason why you left everything that you went through while it's fresh in your mind write it down because I tell you you can go through a point a couple months later where they're being so sweet and adorable and loving and kind and you know you forget you get this amnesia and you forget all the awful gut-wrenching things that you went through and that you felt every day. So stay accountable to yourself and realize that you're gonna go through that. But I tell you Lizzie and I interview lots and lots of people on our podcast and we meet lots and lots of people at the conferences we go to and so far I not have not had one woman say, I don't have like the best life ever. Like one of my very good friends I grew up with since third grade it took her about two years and not like like grieving and horrible the whole time but it took her two years. She was married for 30 years and she's like I was driving down the road the other day Dina she goes and I kept going what is this feeling I'm feeling what is feeling I'm feeling she goes it's happiness. I'm happy this is what happiness feels like she hadn't felt it in so long that she had literally compromised that her life would just this is the way it was well at least it wasn't this at least she wasn't dealing with what so and so was dealing with you know we get we start to expect so little that even the little crumbs that we get thrown every now and then just make us say well at least I'm not dealing with that and we stay but we aren't really living the life we're supposed to live we're not really living so anyway that's my two cents.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

So what keeps you ladies doing this work?

SPEAKER_04 52:21

The beautiful people we meet Shannon and Anne. It's the beautiful people we meet you truthfully Dean and I when we go to a conference it's really interesting you're not sure how you're gonna be embraced in that community because it's not a domestic violence conference. And it's just amazing the people that really appreciate what you do and then hearing their stories and their survival and their knowledge and their wisdom. Because there's just like anything else there's no cookie cutter to what it could look like. And it's beautiful how each person's garden turn out to be at the end.

SPEAKER_05 53:03

Yeah and you know there's nothing more wonderful than sitting down with a woman who is completely broken and she's like absolutely desperate and maybe she didn't know who to go to you know because she's now been isolated down to the his family and that's it, you know, or maybe her little bit of her family but or this guy is like gaslit everybody into thinking she's this horrible person, you know, and she's the abusive one. And they come to you and they unload everything and you know the tears and just the agony and the pain on their face and you're able to tell them no you're not alone and you are not you know causing this. You are not at fault you and just watching like it's like you're watching somebody just be have life like breathed back into them. Even in that conversation because all of a sudden they get this epiphany that maybe it wasn't all me. Maybe I'm not crazy. You know maybe I'm not this abuser. Maybe there's hope. Maybe I actually could leave maybe I'd actually be strong enough to find a different life you know and you give them permission to imagine that and you start to watch them just light up and that is so beautiful. It's it's it's like it's like everything you went through at that moment was worth it because you didn't waste it. You didn't have to waste it you know and that's what you ladies are doing. And I love that you guys are just like you know we're gonna have a voice and we're gonna talk about these things and why do you ladies do it?

SPEAKER_02 54:36

I was gonna say for basically the same reasons like you were just talking about I mean the first time that we had somebody send us a message and said that they come across our show and listen to one of the episodes and it made a difference in their life and it helped them that right there just touched me in ways that I can't even describe and I was like yes that's the whole reason why we're doing this if just one person you know learns something or gets help from you know something that they heard on our show then it's all worth it.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 55:17

It's spreading the light and and it's it's like it's just like you don't have you don't have to waste that pain. It doesn't have to be like wow I went through all that for nothing like I gave up 27 years of my life and still have regrets you know toward what my kids went through you know and they could have had a I mean now they're raising their children so much better. And I will say if if nothing else I think they learned what not to do and who not to marry. Because yeah I mean I I'm I do think there's something to that not that you would pick anybody like that to have that happen because right you know you want your kids to have healthy role models of what a good relationship really looks like and how a man should treat a woman and a woman should treat a man or anybody should treat anybody really but yeah I tell you it's it's uh it's quite a it's quite an epiphany.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

It's quite an epiphany when you know when you look back on that and just say wow this wasn't wasted yeah exactly and I think that the reason why I do this is you know uh I have an episode that's coming out I was a guest on another show and Ann and I were talking about this before you ladies joined us that uh when it does come out I have a feeling that one half of my family is probably gonna have some really nice so nice things to say about it. And then the other half of my family is going to be like rah rah supportive you know of it. And I'm okay with that because it's my story. It happened to me and I'm allowed to tell my story. For so many years I was told I couldn't tell my story. I had to keep it a secret I wasn't supposed to have a voice well guess what? That was false I can tell my story I can have a voice and I want everybody out there to know tell your story. Don't let somebody keep you quiet tell your story because your story is going to help somebody else and touch somebody else and encourage them to tell their story and that's how healing happens.

SPEAKER_05 57:17

Use your voice yeah absolutely and it doesn't have to be on a podcast you guys don't have to podcast and tell no but you don't have to like we're we're kind of brave or maybe slightly crazy we're a little okay crazy brave choose choose your poison but you don't have to do that but literally but tell somebody tell somebody you guys I tell you what just holding that stuff hostage inside of your soul it's like it will literally do damage in there and and I mean legit damage and don't like tell them part of it either. Don't like tell them a little bit of it. Don't tell just enough to let out a little steam. No tell somebody what happened to you. I don't care how embarrassing it is you probably will feel ashamed you know you might be mad at yourself for allowing it to happen. You might be deeply deeply wounded and you you know you have to tell it when you can when it's the right time but it's got to come out it has to come out. So a therapist a life coach a friend a trusted family member it's got to come out tell your story.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Exactly well Dina and Liza thank you so much for being on the show again to finish up this episode it's been such a pleasure talking to you ladies both it's been a joy thank you for having us back it's so good to see you too yeah I have a feeling we're gonna be like like buds for a while I love this I absolutely love so we do we are gonna keep in contact and and keep in each other's lives for sure.

SPEAKER_05 58:44

Please please please do that please do that I really really want to keep in touch and I want to hear your story Shannon I'm actually very interested now.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

It's quite a story quite a story.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

It is the podcast that I'm on is only one fraction of my story. It's only the adoption part of my story but just that fraction is very controversial and a lot of surprises that happen. So you ladies will have to tune in to watch that the podcast is called uh the girl in the covered podcast it's a new podcast that just started and she has had some incredible ladies on there so far telling their stories wow okay the girl in the covered yeah what a title yeah I know I love the title it's so great thank you ladies so much it was so much to you travel time story come here along with us