Why Toxic Relationships Feel So Addictive | (feat.Dr. Stephen Paul Edwards)

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Look at the kettle. Then I look behind it. She's cut the wire to the kettle. So you're probably going the same way I went on that point. I went, that's not the only cable she's cut, no way. She cut every cable to every electrical plant in the house. But I still I know then that's not it. We're just getting started, right?

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Every journey has a story. And every story has the power to heal. My story hasn't been ordinary. I was adopted. I'm a survivor of abuse and trauma, and I have more than a dozen siblings. That's just the beginning of my story. Life has taken me on a long and winding road of healing and personal growth. A journey that ultimately led me back to myself and the path I was meant to walk. Along the way, I discovered that stories have power. The power to connect us, to help us grow, and even to help us heal. This is Travel Time Stories with Shannon. Real journeys, real stories, and real healing. Have you ever looked back at a relationship and thought, how did I ignore all those red flags? Why do some people feel like home while simultaneously destroying your peace?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Or wondered why some relationships feel more like addiction than love? Why does chaos sometimes feel more intimate than safety?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Why do humans repeatedly confuse emotional intensity with love?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Tonight's conversation isn't about dating.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

It's about power, attachment, identity, desire, and shame.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

And the dangerous things we'll tolerate just to avoid feeling alone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

I'm your host, Shannon from Texas, and welcome back to Travel Time Stories with Shannon, where we share real journeys, real stories, and give you real healing.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Beautiful. And I'm your co-host Ann from Missouri. And tonight's conversation feels less like an interview and more like the kind of discussion people have at midnight after a couple of glasses of wine when the walls finally come down.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

We're joined by Dr. Stephen Paul Edwards, international speaker, transformational coach, and the author of The Venus Y Trap: Sex, Lies, and Repercussions.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

His work explores toxic relationships, emotional patterns, vulnerability, heartbreak, identity, and the psychology behind why humans repeat destructive cycles.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Stephen, welcome to the table. We're excited about this conversation.

SPEAKER_05 2:59

Wow, I gotta tell you, ladies, I'm so impressed. You know, I think that was an incredible introduction. Thank you so much. You guys do such incredible preparation for this. You even read the book. I mean, that's amazing, right? That's pretty awesome. Hopefully you enjoyed it. It wasn't too much of a drudge. But yeah, uh, and I want to thank you for having me here. I'm really excited about our conversation. And uh I know people are gonna have a good time, as are we, right? Yeah, and they're gonna walk through over something of great value. So really a blessing to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Exactly. And yes, we definitely enjoyed the book. And now that I know book two is out, I am gonna be purchasing that so I can read books. We're ready.

SPEAKER_05 3:38

Yes. We're ready, yeah. Wow, that's wonderful. Well, that that is a real powerful reference when uh two ladies have read the book and they are looking forward to book two. I'm very delighted to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yes, we we need to read it immediately while book one is still fresh.

SPEAKER_05 3:54

And you know what? We will take care of that, ladies. No problem. We will take care of that.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

So as we say on travel time stories, grab your favorite beverage and let's get into it.

SPEAKER_05 4:07

I love that when you said, and when you said and it's like it, you know, you're gonna have a chat at midnight with a glass of wine, and you you just picture that so cozy, right? That's so nice.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Exactly. And it just all comes out. It all comes out. We smell the tea, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

We do, we do, yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

All right.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

So let's talk about attraction because everyone has that relationship, the one where you knew it was chaos, yeah, but you stayed anyway.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

So do you think people are attracted to other people, or are they attracted to the unresolved parts of themselves that they see reflected back?

SPEAKER_05 4:46

Great question. I would say both, right? I would say both. But the main, main reason for it is to heal, right? You know, so what I people go, I'm in a toxic relationship. What's wrong with me? And I go, nothing. There's nothing wrong with you. You have decided, along with your creator, whether you call that God, the you, whatever you want to call it, right? That it's time. It's time to look in the mirror. It's time to look at these things that you've either given away in the past, parts of yourself, or you've been afraid of. It's time to heal those things. And this person has come in your life to help you go through that. Doesn't mean they're going to be easy on you, right? It doesn't mean you're not going to have pain, you know, but it is, you know, one of the beliefs I adopted a long time ago, ladies, not long enough, but a long time ago, is that nothing happens to you. Everything happens for you. Now that sounds easy, simple to say. It's a lot different to live it, right? To actually really believe it, because we got a choice there. When something happens, we have a choice of saying, This happened to me. This person did this to me. But when we do that, we we have a wound. But when we say this happened for me, we become wiser.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Yeah.

unknown 5:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:59

So we have a choice in that moment, either be wounded by it, angry about it, frustrated about it, resentful about it, and carry it with us wherever we go. We have an opportunity to say, by the way, I'm not saying this is easy, right? You know, when something happens, go, you know, Stephen Evans said this happened for me. Screw him, that's bullshit. This did not happen for me, right? And I say the same thing sometimes, right? But when I calm down and I really look at it and I'm committed to the belief, you know, I'm I'm I'm a brat about it. I said, Well, how's this fucking happen for me? How's that happen for me, right? This is gonna be good, right? I mean, I talk to myself, as I say in the book.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Yeah, and we all do, right? We all do. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 6:38

Because I say to the reader at that point, I know you do too, because you just asked yourself, do I talk to myself? See? So we all do that. We have these conversations, which are very often hilarious, right? You're having this conversation, and sometimes you're thinking, you know, I should write this down. This is hilarious. But anyway, right. When you commit to realizing and and really uh digging down deep and you find why it's happened for you, it's such a blessing. You know, it frees you from years and years of pain because the other person doesn't know. So you might be angry or resentful or whatever. And so you're carrying that low vibrational energy around with you, and it's hurting you. Now, having said that, it doesn't mean what they they're part of it that they that they didn't do something, right?

unknown 7:20

Right.

SPEAKER_05 7:20

You can't change that. And you can't change them. All you can do, you know, you can't make it not happen, but what you can do is get the gift out of it that propels you forward. So one of the stories in the book, if I may, I'll just share an example. It just came to my mind. As you might remember, ladies, it was a pretty volatile relationship, right? You know, you get to the end of the chapter and go, thank God, that's all. Yeah, right. And you get to the beginning of the next chapter and you go, they're back together? Are you kidding me? How is that even possible, right? So we had this tumultuous relationship, which actually makes it fun, right? It's pretty funny. But at one point, if you remember, we were broken up. I'd gone away, she'd gone on a binge somewhere, and she came back to the house. It was late at night, and so she broke into the house, right? While I was gone, right? And that the alarms go off, the police come out. It's oh no, no, no. I don't I don't know whether I've actually done this. I think this might be book two.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

I was gonna say, that wasn't book one.

SPEAKER_05 8:13

All right, this is this is a bit of a spoiler, right? A bit of a spoiler. But you'll forget, you'll forget I told you this, right? Because you get caught up in the story.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Anyway. Oh no, no, I won't. I will not forget. And when I get there, I'm gonna be like, this is the Bart. This is the Bart.

SPEAKER_05 8:28

All right, are you okay with me sharing this then? I don't want to, you know, really. Absolutely. Okay. All right. So she comes home, she breaks into the house, the alarms go off. And what had happened recently to this was that something had happened in the community, and they were kind of annoyed at the police because they were taking so long to come out. So now this happens, and they're like, well, this is our opportunity to show how we can come in hot and heavy, right? So there's about six squad cars, two SUVs, they brought the police dogs out. They're running through everybody's garden in the neighborhood, and she's sitting in the car, you know, the Bentley with the roof down, and all these sheriffs are going around like she's got them wrapped around a little finger, right? So they call me, and I'm about 4,000 miles away, and they said, and as you know from the stories, this is not the first time the police have been out to the house, right? Right. So it's like we're almost on first, we were almost on first name terms, right? And I think I said in the book at some point, they should open a branch here in the community because it'd just be much easier, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:26

Anyway, so they they they call me and they say, Well, look, man, you know, she's here at the house and she wants to get in. And I said, Look, under no circumstances, let her in the house. Because I'm thinking it's gonna be a nice, it's gonna be a mess, right? She's yeah, she's gonna be mad, she's gonna be mad, and she's gonna anyway. So they said, Well, listen, I don't know. I'll I'll I'll let me call you back. So they call me back, and he says, Look, man, I'm gonna have to let her in because I just talked to the chief. They talked to the chief of police, right? They talk to the chief of police and says you gotta let her in. I get home three days later, um, I'm like going in the front door, and I'm like, oh my god, what's this gonna be like? You know, I walk in the house, everything's fine. Everything looks just the same as when I left. I'm going. She turned over a new leaf. So I go in the kitchen and I put the kettle on, right? So I can have a cup of tea. So I go out of the kitchen, come back, and the kettle hasn't boiled. It's not even boiling. So I go over, I look at the kettle. And I look behind it, she's cut the wire.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 10:29

So you're probably going the same way I would at that point. I went, that's not the only cable she's cut, right? No way. She cut every cable to every electrical appliance in the house.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 10:41

But I still I know then that's not it. We're just getting started, right? So I don't know if I I think I mentioned this in the book. Maybe I'm I'm not sure. But anyway, I when I talk about my childhood, I talk about the fact that my mother sent me to school in school clothes that were just way too big for me, right? And so, you know, you know how kids are, right? They're ruthless, right? So they would tease me, humiliate me, and the teachers weren't any better, right? They'd be like, Edwards, come here. What are you wearing? You know what I mean? Like this. I really don't know, sir. Whatever, right? So clothes became very important to me because they'd been a source of humiliation, right? And so by the time I was nine years old, I had to find a way to buy my own clothes to get out of the paint. So throughout my life, clothes have been very important to me. I always wanted to look immaculate. You know, no, and by now, I'm in a time of my life when I'm making all this money. So you can imagine I had a pretty nice wardrobe, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Right.

SPEAKER_05 11:37

It was my what do you call it? Pride and joy, right? So I'm thinking, no, no, no, please, right? So I get to my closet, again, everything looks fine. Then I pull the clothes back. She's cut them all up, right? She's cut all my clothes off. And my shoes.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_05 11:53

So, like I said, in that moment, I did not say, well, this happened for me. I didn't say that, right? I was upset. I was angry, of course, right? I'm human, right? Yeah. So, and that went on for a while. But finally, when I sat down, exhausted, and thought, I'm looking out, I remember this distinctly, I'm looking out over the lake, right? And I go, okay, all right. This happened for me. Explain that to me out. This is gonna be good, right? And the answer doesn't come to you right away, right? You get different answers that you're trying to do in your mind to justify it, to try and calm down. So one of the first things that came to my mind was, well, it's just clothes. But that's not it, right? You because then your brain goes, they were really nice clothes, though, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 12:39

So it's a process. You can't just say, you know, this happened for me, and then you're gonna come up with it. You're not, but you've got to be committed to it and keep going deeper and deeper and deeper until you get to the point. And the point was attachment. I was attached to those clothes to the point where they become part of my identity. And that's dangerous, right? Because now you're giving more of yourself away. But I know that's not all of it, right? So attachment, what else am I attached to? Right? So you keep going. And so that's when it started for me to let it all go. Because I realize that possessions, there's a reason they're called possessions. Because they possess you. They take energy away from you and you who you really are. They take energy away from you to get them, right? To go out, you gotta work hard, and you gotta do that, and you have to compromise yourself for that, right? You have to compromise your relationships. It's one of the reasons I went through four marriages, right? So you pay a price. Everything has consequences, right? They're not punishments, they're just consequences, right? So now, my one of my points is this. Once you take on that belief and you really, really commit to it, you can never be a victim again because nobody did it to you. They did it for you. Yeah, and that puts it all in a whole new light. And it becomes a gift. And now once you've done that a number of times, you know there's always a gift in it somewhere, right? And so if I hadn't had that belief, I would still be angry at her today. I'd still be carrying that anger, that resentment, that frustration, and feeling like she did it to me instead of recognizing that as a spirit, as a soul, she came into my life to help me, to teach me, to show me who I am by reflecting it back at me and helping me do the healing.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

That is powerful. So why do you think toxic relationships feel often more emotionally powerful than healthy ones?

SPEAKER_05 14:37

Because you wouldn't get into it if it wasn't. Right? It's beyond your control, which is why, you know, when people you know, people will come and they'll complain, right? Well, he did this or she did that, and you say, Well, you need to get out of it then. And they go, I know, right? I'm gonna. And they go back and they're not they're not coming out of it, right? Because they need they still have things to learn. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:01

And everybody else is going, they're so stupid. You know, can't they see that this guy or this woman isn't gonna help them? They're destructive, they're toxic. Well, as it turns out, that's not necessarily true in the long term, in the short term, it can sure feel toxic. But the drawer, whatever that drawer is, is beyond your control. It's so powerful. It's like a drug, right? And you know when a drug addict has taken a drug, they have no power over it, right? They have no power over it. The drug takes over. So she was my heroine, right? Not in my hero, but in my, you know, she was my addiction.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:39

And that was what held me in there, right? So that I could go through all the things I needed to go through to learn the lessons, to shed the skin of who I had been, and rebirth myself as a new person, right? Sounds easy. It wasn't easy, as you know, right? It was very difficult, but it was up and down, wasn't it?

unknown 15:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:58

Just when I thought I was gonna get out of it, she draw me back in. You know what I mean? I mean, so you go in and out, doesn't that make sense? And and if you if you when you're reading the book, you're going, well, he seems to be making sense now. And then you go to the next page, now he's lost it again. Now he's gone back, now he's gone crazy again, right? Yeah. So my point I want to make, and I think you guys do too, is look, don't feel bad about it. And you know, I say to people sometimes, have you ever been in a toxic relationship? Usually people say yes, right? If they say no, I say, Well, you need to get out more often. You know what I mean? Because if you know, here's the thing, we're never fully healed, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

No.

SPEAKER_05 16:35

Our relationships are a reflection of us, right? And all they're gonna do is reflect back the areas that you're not healed. And if you constantly look at them like they're the problem, you might get out of you might get out of that relationship and say, I'm not gonna date for six months. Great. You date you date after six months, and what do you find? You meet the same person in a different body. You know what I mean? The same pattern repeats. So I I say to people, look, you don't have a relationship problem, you have a pattern problem. And so we need together to look at the patterns that probably began in your childhood that you're repeating over and over again, and until we resolve that, this is all this is what's gonna keep happening. So you've got a choice. Do you want to spend the rest of your life doing this? Or would you rather heal it now and start living the life you really want to live? And you deserve to live, right? And based on that answer, sometimes they're still ready they they still want to go back. And it's okay. It's okay because there's still more for you to get out of it. You won't do it anymore when you're sick and tired of being sick and tired. When you've got everything you need and you're ready to come out of it, and you make that commitment. Just like we talked about, you know, saying the things you're ashamed of out loud, you gotta say out loud what you want. You know, how can how can God create for you what you want if you don't tell him or her, depending on how you look at it, right? So you gotta say it out loud, right? You gotta and it doesn't necessarily mean you've got to shout it from the rooftop, so that's not a bad idea either. But you've got to say it either in your words, in your thoughts, or your actions, or even better, all three.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Yeah, that's true. And uh leads into one thing that my mom used to always tell me, and man wishes you spot on. When you get a belly full, you'll leave. You won't leave till you get a belly full, but once you get a belly full, then you'll leave.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

You know, that's great, big metaphor. You're not hungry for it anymore, right? You've lost your appetite. Lost your appetite.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 18:29

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Mothers always know best.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yes, they do. You don't think so at the time, necessarily.

SPEAKER_05 18:37

But but you find out later. You think about it later, that's true, isn't it, right? It's like they're setting you up. Because they know when you're young, you haven't been through those experiences yet. But when you do, you'll remember and it'll can kind of give you a comfort in that, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I'm of the mindset similar to what you're talking about, that I feel like everything happens for a reason in your life.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

There's a reason and a purpose behind whatever it is that's happening in your life, a lesson or a gift or something that you're supposed to learn or gift.

SPEAKER_05 19:14

You know, I I I'm a big fan of uh Carl Jung, and he talks about this. He talks about these relationships that come into your life, and he said, you know, you might feel like this is the one. This is the person that's gonna make you whole or whatever you want to call it, right? And they're so amazing and you're so in love. Why would God put you put someone in your life that's so perfect and then make it impossible for you to be with them? And it's because it's not they're not here to be that person for the rest of your life, they're here to teach you, right? They're here to be a good idea. There you go. A reason, season lifetime, right? So yeah, they're here for a reason to help you, and then they'll be gone. And you have to let them go, which is another lesson, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:58

You know, like you you ladies know, you have to love someone enough to let them go. But you also have to love yourself enough to let them go. Yeah, and that's never gonna be easy. But again, you know, God says, listen, I didn't say it was gonna be easy, I just said it's gonna be worth it. Exactly. And so often people are so afraid to go through the pain. You're gonna go through pain. You're gonna walk through the fire, right? Or you're going to live a life that is not your own. You're gonna live a life of mediocrity at best, right? You're not gonna you're not gonna embrace all the gifts you've been given because you're giving them away, right? From fear, right? Well, what if I lose this person? What if they don't love me anymore? Well, if you don't share who you really are, they don't love you because they don't even know who the hell you are. Right? And that's why people that's what that's when subconsciously we know this, right? We know it. And so when we become afraid of stepping into our power of being who we really are, we're always gonna live in fear of losing that person because you're thinking, well, you say you love me, but you don't know me. And so you never feel worthy of love. And then you start to believe that if people find out who I really am, they won't love me anymore. And that's a tough place to be, isn't it? It is so that's why I say vulnerability is a power, it's a tremendous power. When you can be vulnerable, uh, as you talk about, when you can and you say it here, you know, you speak it out. Say it, share it, because then it loses power over you.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 21:32

And then you think to yourself, well, I put it all out there now. What can anybody say about me I haven't said? You know what I mean? You were so yeah, you know, they can go, you were so stupid. I go, Yeah, I know, but have you read the whole book? Because there's a lot more to come, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

You don't care what people say anymore because you're okay with yourself and you've got that freedom, right? And that's what she gave me. She gave me my freedom. Because by showing me, demonstrating to me. Being her authentic self, which is, you know, you read the book, she's like, she doesn't care. Yeah. She just puts it all out there, right? Yeah. Which which is attractive in itself. I'm not saying I want to be like her, but I'm saying it's like that isn't that what we all want? We all want to be our authentic self, and just we want people to love us, and so we're afraid if we put that out there, that maybe people won't love us. But actually they'll love you more because you're being real.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 22:26

And we live in a world where people are just pretending to be something that they think society expects them to be. And it's exhausting, right? It's exhausting. And most people, I have this image in my mind of you know, when people come home from work and you know, everyone lives in the same house. This is the house you're supposed to live in, in the right neighborhood. You know, the garden's done, got the right car that everybody has, and then they get through the front door and they put the back against the door and go, Thank God I'm home and I can be no I can be myself. I don't have to keep that facade up anymore that's so exhausting at work with your friends and socially. That's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_05 23:08

You know? So yeah, I mean they're not easy lessons to learn, and and listen, I've still got a lot to go. I'm not even close, right? This this was a lot I learned, a great deal I learned, but I'm still learning, right? I'm still growing, I'm still learning things about that relationship. I'll give you an example. So, yes, today, and it's like you have this light bulb moment, and I go, wow. Right? Because when I was a kid, I didn't have any intimacy. My mom was so wounded from her childhood that she didn't know how to be obviously not intimate, but I mean in terms of, you know, be mothering and touch and in a in a good way.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 23:52

So when you learn that when you're a child, that carries with you into later life. So you're not comfortable having that kind of intimacy, right? The intimacy that I had would be in conversation through the mind, thinking and sharing and talking. But I was very afraid of sexual intimacy. And I went, wow, that explains a lot of things, right? It explains why I would always prefer to be watching rather than in it. Which creates um uh voyeurism, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:21

So right because intimacy was is just not something I'm comfortable in because I don't know it, right? But becoming aware of it is powerful, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:34

Awareness is the beginning, right? Yeah. And so things like that all the time come into my mind and I go, wow, I didn't even realize that, you know, but yeah, that's that's true.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Well, speaking of that, since you brought it up, we live in a culture where sexuality is everywhere. Yet honest conversations about it still make people uncomfortable. So why do you think sexuality remains so taboo still, even in this day?

SPEAKER_05 24:59

Yeah. Well, it's a great question, and uh and I'm not gonna say I have all the answers, but I think one of them might be the sexuality has been made to be shameful. You know? Um and I think a lot of things that we believe have been handed down from generation to generation. And they might have made sense a hundred years ago.

unknown 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:23

But not today. You know, I I once heard a story and I thought this was funny. And I don't remember if I can remember the story, I'll try and I'll do my best. But there was a a woman, they got she got married and she used to bake the cake. Her grandmother had taught us how to how to bake this cake, right? The recipe and everything. So her husband was in the kitchen with her, and she took the cake out of the oven, right? And when she took it out of the the uh the container, she cut both ends off. And her husband said, What why'd you do that? She said, I don't know. That's what my grandmother always did, right? So, and the reason is she said to her grandmother, why did you cut the ends off? She said, honey, because the pot wasn't big enough. That's not what we used to do, right? But sometimes we just do things because that's the way it's always been done, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 26:09

So I think we are having um uh a new and I write about this in the book, right? A new sexual revolution where it is becoming people talk about it more. Women are better at than men, right? Women are much more open. They they to them it's not a big deal, right? To guys, it's like they freeze up, right? You know what for whatever reason. So, but we need to make it okay for guys to talk about it too, because if we don't, then it's still difficult for women, right? Because when they want to talk about it, men don't want to talk about it and it gets shut down, and then there's a whole missing piece in the relationship, right? Girlfriend, boyfriend, marriage, whatever it is, right? So that was one thing that we were able to do, as I write about in the book. We were able to talk about our sexuality because we were sexually aligned for whatever reason. And we were both able to be vulnerable because we recognized that there were there was there were mirrors, right? Like we were both in an asylum when we were kids. It was terrible, it was traumatic. But we could we could understand each other through that, right? Through our sexuality and through our desire to have adventures. We were both, you know, you could say we were both very irresponsible. Yeah, but it's okay. We took risks, right? And it didn't always work out well, right? But we were driven by not wanting to live what society would say is a normal life that just wasn't what we wanted, right? Right. We wanted to have adventures. We wanted to have, and we were very fortunate during this time. We were living a fantasy life, right? I mean, here we are, we're living in a mansion, we've got every tour you could want, right? We got a butler, we travel, we look, we stay in hotels. If I'd have said to her, can you make the bed? She would have gone, what?

unknown 27:43

Right?

SPEAKER_05 27:44

What's making the bed, right? You know, could you make a cup of tea? Yeah, probably not.

unknown 27:49

Right?

SPEAKER_05 27:50

How about boiling egg? What's an egg? No, I mean, you know what I mean? It was ridiculous, right? So um uh we weren't living a normal life by a long stretch. I mean, we're living a fantasy life that was just not tenable, right? It wasn't tenable, you know, uh, and we did crazy things that how we weren't held more accountable is amazing, right? I mean, no, the times the police came over, the time we got stopped in the car, you know, we're on a cruise, we almost get arrested. I mean, how the hell do you pull that off, right? Exactly. Right. And then, you know, we go to Las Vegas, I'm trying to work, she's being a brat, so I leave her in Las Vegas, and people are going, You left her in Las Vegas? Well, not only did I leave it in Las Vegas, I left her without any money, right? So that's how crazy it was, the crazy things we did. I was trying to set boundaries, not a chance. There was never a chance of her accepting a boundary. She used to stump all over them, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:45

And then so people like, yeah, we'll say, well, why'd you stay? Because I was crazy about her, right? Yeah. You know, and I kept saying to myself, well, look, here's the deal. You could break up with her. And I, you know, I talked to you in the book, right? I'm saying, yeah, you're probably thinking I should have broken up with her now, don't you? Yeah. I did. You wouldn't be reading this, would you? And you wouldn't be having so much fun. So there you go. And also, you know, what am I gonna do? I mean, I could go back to a uh uh you know, a mediocre, boring life, or I can have this fun and adventure with this crazy woman, right? And I kind of like crazy, right? Yeah I liked it to some degree. It ended up getting a little bit extreme. But you know, at the beginning, if you remember the beginning of the book when I talk about how I met her, we met online, yeah, trying to get a date with her, and she canceled, and then I got I got another date. And then to tie the date down, I decided I'm gonna buy her some flowers, right? And I asked her, what's your favorite flower? And she said, uh, Bird of Paradise. Right?

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:40

And then I joked with her, right? I was joking with her all the time, right? And I said, nah, mine too. It's a bit expensive, though. So what's your second favorite? Right? It's a joke, right? And what did she say? What did she say?

SPEAKER_01 29:51

The Venus flytrap.

SPEAKER_05 29:52

Venus flytrap, right? Immediately, right? Yeah. I mean, what are the chances? I mean, think about this, right? Talk about being guided, talk about being imperfect. How many people would say to a woman, what's your favorite flower? Well, it's a bit expensive, so what's your second favorite? Nobody. Nobody did. I didn't actually, when she said Venus flytrap, what do you think I felt? This is dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

This is dangerous, yeah. This is a sign.

SPEAKER_05 30:20

Intuition told me right out of the gate. But what did I say? Yeah, well, I kind of like dangerous, right? Exactly. You know what I mean? I so I over, what did you say? I overrode or ignored it, right? Uh, and I paid the price, right? But I also got the rewards out of it, right? You know, there were a lot of rewards out of it. I mean, for all the drama, all the chaos, all the mayhem, there were some really amazing times we spent we spent together, right? Right. And to be honest with you, is as you go through the book, and I say this and I talk about this in the book, you know, I talk about her relationship with her father, my father, all that stuff. And there was a piece of both of us that felt unworthy, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:01

But in the end of book one, if you remember, when I'm driving to pick her up at the ranch, right? Because she'd run away, right? To punish me, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

Which I needed. And she kicked me ass. She kicked my ass, right, again. And I'm driving because she had called me to come get her, right? And the guy that she'd run away to, who was much wealthier than I was. She'd let him go to get me to go and pick her up. And what did that tell me? Well, maybe she does love me. I am lovable, right? And that was powerful. So I'm driving down the road crying, thinking, because that's such a breakthrough, you know? Such a huge breakthrough to say she showed me that she could go find a guy wealthier than me anytime. I mean, she did that like in an hour. She found that guy when I when I I sent Ross over to see what she was doing. And it pissed her off, quite rightly, right? Because I knew she was going out, and she didn't want to tell me she was going out because she knew it it would it would make me mad, right? So she just decides to do it anyway, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

So he goes over and finds her there, and she goes, All right, let me show you.

unknown 32:06

Right?

SPEAKER_05 32:07

So it's like 10 o'clock at night, and within two hours, she's fine, you know, a multimillionaire in Gainesville that'll have her come out. He gives her a car, a Mercedes 55 SL, gives her a bungalow on the place, wants her to be the manager of his resort. It's not what she wanted. She wanted to make me jealous and to come and get her, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 32:26

So I did, you know. And so we have that beautiful scene of her sitting outside the bungalow and I'm just holding her, right? And that's so those beautiful moments and uh incredible experiences, along with the along with the not so enjoyable experiences that we had. But you're also going to learn in the second book why, which will shock you. It will shock you what was actually going on behind the scenes that I wasn't aware of, and neither was she, that made it untenable. So not only was it untenable from the crazy madness, mayhem, chaos that was going on, there's another thing that neither of us realized that made it impossible.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 33:04

I can't wa yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Now I'm just more intrigued and can't wait to read book two.

SPEAKER_05 33:10

Yeah. I gotta tell you, ladies, I've read both books, I don't even know how many times. Because I really enjoy it. I think it's an amazing story. I think it's an incredible story. But I then you think to yourself, well, that's me because I wrote it. But I've written a bunch of books and never read them again, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:25

But this one I'm really I know it's an incredible story, and I know it's layered with so many opportunities to learn. You could just read it as an entertainment. Just put it down. Or, you know what I find a lot of people say, Well, I did that, or I did the other. I was in a toxic relationship. And so that's another thing that is important is to I want to create a community, you know, so that people can share, you know, being in a relationship that other people might consider toxic and start to realize, well, maybe there was lessons in it for me too. Maybe there's something there for me too, and maybe that will take away some of the anger, resentment about it, instead of looking at the other person being the um, what's the word I'm looking for? To being the villain. There you go. There we go. That's a great word. And then you can say, well, instead of thinking they're the villain, maybe I was the volunteer, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:17

And and it doesn't mean that what they did was right. Doesn't mean you have to have repeat that anymore. What it does is it gives you the opportunity to heal, so you don't want it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 34:28

You know, and obviously people ask me, well, are you still together? Do you see each other? You know, are you in communication? Sometimes I joke and say, Yeah, she's here. You want to talk to her? No. I say, no, no, right. And I say, not because I have nothing but love for her. I have nothing but gratitude to her, but I don't want to do that again. I'm not the same person anymore. I don't even want that anymore. But because of her, I've learned to set boundaries, I've learned how to make sure I don't give myself away, don't stop doing the things that are important to me for somebody else, to recognize that I had been playing a smaller game because I was afraid that these things would come out and I was holding them in, right? And a bunch of other things. There are so many opportunities to learn that. And like I said, I'm still learning, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:12

I had that aha moment yesterday, which is powerful. Now I've become aware of that. Now I can decide what I want to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Exactly. And I think uh, at least for me anyway, and maybe it's the same for you. And like I told you before we started recording, I'm writing my book as well, my story of my relationship that I went through. And I found that in writing the story, I had all these aha moments that just kept popping up as I'm writing the story. Yes, that I saw that I didn't see then and hadn't saw up to this point. But as I'm rewriting everything, it just like the light bulbs were going off, and I'm like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 35:58

Yeah, it's cathartic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:02

So I'm I'm very blessed that I did it, but I also know this, right? So just be careful. Because here's the thing to write it all down, you're thinking about them a lot, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:14

And you know, your thoughts are things, right? Electromagnetic energy.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:19

And as I'm writing, I'm going, I'm really, you know, getting emotional. There's a lot of emotion on those thoughts. She's coming back. She's gonna come back in my life, and I gotta really consider what I'm gonna do. And I went in and out, I'll be honest with you, right? I thought, no, we could talk, you know, right? Not to justify having them back in your life, but then you go, no, no, no, no, no. That's how she always works, right? She gets in a little bit, and then before you know it, you're back doing it again, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 36:47

So she did, she came back. I mean, she didn't come back physically, you know, starting to connect with me again, and I just didn't even respond. Just gonna let that shit pass, right? Yeah. Because if I give it any energy, it's gonna start over, right? Yeah. And I just said, I'm not that person anymore. That's not what I want anymore, you know? Yeah. The person that was there in the story no longer exists. They're gone, right? Yeah. And the person that she was, I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But anyway, but you never step into the same river twice. And sometimes you just have to let it flow, let it go, right? So, because people would ask me, ladies, they'd say, Are you over this? And I say, I have no idea. I say, What do you mean, no idea? Well, I mean, you can do all the work you want, but you don't know until you're faced with the same situation.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 37:36

And that's when you know what you're gonna do and watch how you respond, and that's when you know. The good news is that I it's not something I'm never gonna go back there, right? The bad news is I still got a lot of work to do. There's still a long way to go. Which I recognize, right? And I'm going through it. But another beautiful thing that happened for me was that in order to finally sit down and write the book, I had to be alone. I had to be and I chose to be on my own to not be in a relationship anymore. Because honestly, I was exhausted. I mean, at the end you just go, I'm too tired to be in a relationship anymore, right? But that's when I had the space and the opening to write. And that's when I had the space to be alone and feel good about being alone, enjoy my own company, right? Not feel I needed anybody. Doesn't mean if I don't choose to be with someone I can't. But I don't even think about that. Maybe I will. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. I don't know. But I'm really happy being with myself and being alone, right? I haven't even dated anybody in over four years.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 38:44

Yeah. So not because I can't, I just not that's you know, I've got so many things that are important to me in my life now, ladies, that I'm passionate about. I don't want to give that up again, you know? And so I've really considered what a relationship would mean going forward. Well, first of all, there'd be boundaries of what I'm prepared to do, not prepared to do, because in the past I would just go along with what they wanted. And I would adapt myself to that and make it okay. But now I don't want I don't want to be married again. I mean, well, no surprise there, right? You've given that enough shots, right? I mean, what's the definition of insanity? And people say, well, it's doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. And I go, no, it's me. If you look in addiction, you know, you're a picture of me there. So no more marriage for me and no more living with someone for me. You know, I enjoy my home. I like to I like to have it to myself. I'm not saying that's right for everybody, I'm just saying it's what I know I want, and that's my boundary, right? It's not that I wouldn't necessarily date someone and you know, a couple of times a week and go on adventures together, and we could enjoy that, but not live with somebody. You know, like I said, I'm I'm unmarriageable now.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

I wouldn't go that far, Stephen.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

I think when you get to be our age, your your mindset changes regarding that, regarding relationships and like you know, you learn that being alone is okay. And you really like your freedom in being alone and not having to share your space with another person. But you still I mean, but you still crave companionship, and like you say, you know, it's great to, you know, go out on a date here or there or or go on a vacation together or whatever, but you don't have to share your space with that person on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_05 40:43

Right. Yeah, that's that's that's exactly right. I agree with you 100%.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Can do whatever you want. It's so nice. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 40:55

Now, some of you guys might find this funny, right? So my experience, this is just my experience, you know, uh, is that sleeping with the women that I've had in my life, and that just could be my experience, is the the woman wants the whole freaking bed, right? They're not sprawled out, and I'm like in the corner hanging off the edge. Wait a minute, this is a king-sized bed. Is there not enough room for two people here? You know what I mean? So I like my bed and I like my space. Um, and I like, as uh, you know, you said, and I like my freedom. Yeah, I like to come and go as a one. I mean, sometimes for long periods in my life, everything changes with me. I'm a I love change. My father, he could live groundhog day. He'd be fine. He loves the same things, wants to do the same thing every day. That's not for me. I like variety.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:40

So I do, you know, so for like right now, I'm on a I'm on a uh pattern of I wake up really early. I wake up three o'clock in the morning. And then I do things that I want to do. It's kind of like a freedom thing, right? It's because it's time you wouldn't normally have, right? Yeah. So I spend that time doing little bits in here, and I get up and I work out, and then I uh, you know, meditate, do all these kind of things. And I've given those up before, right? But those are the things that make me who I am, right? Those are the things that I that I do for myself, and you have to do for yourself, right? So I tell people, look, it's gotta be you for you know, God first, you second, and you've gotta be doing things for yourself because otherwise you have nothing to give. Right. Well, you know what, you just spent. So you've got to you've got to fill your cup before you can empty it.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Exactly. And you can't lose yourself and someone else.

SPEAKER_05 42:35

And I've done that so often. Yes, it is. It really is. You don't even realize you're doing it.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:44

Because we we're givers. You want to give, right? And you want people to feel good. But before you know it, you're over giving, right? You're overgiving, right? And if you're with the person if you're in a talk tribulation room, they will just take and take and take. And it'll be never enough for either of you.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 43:03

Because you can never give them everything they need because what they need is inside them. And you can never give people everything they need because when you're giving like that, you don't want to save them. You really want to save yourself.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Well, and that's only going to be a good idea. People need to take responsibility too for themselves. They need to give themselves grace and be willing to give that grace to their partner as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:28

Unfortunately, to a large extent, it's also a society issue. Because we're taught things as children, by when you guys were growing up. But you know, as a guy, you're taught you've got to find the damsel in distress. You you gotta rescue, save, and fix her. Well, imagine that world, right? That's not gonna happen, right? There's no woman that needs rescue, and there's no woman that needs saving, and you're definitely never gonna fix her because she's already perfect. So stop trying to find people that you can make and mold into what you want. Find the person. That's already right for you, life is going to be so much easier. And then you probably won't have to go through four divorces.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Let's hope not anyway. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 44:08

Let's pray for that. Let's pray for that, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:11

So you've said that healing begins when truth replaces denial. So what truths do people usually avoid facing after a heartbreak?

SPEAKER_05 44:21

Yeah. Well, again, you know, we can talk about these things. It sounds easy. I know it's not easy, right? I know when you have a heartbreak and you're trying to heal after a relationship, you feel wounded, right? Because to have those feelings, you still got to be in the blame game, right? And it's easy to justify, right? Because it's like, well, he did this to me. He probably did, right? But he also did it for you in some and I you're not going to tell that person that right then, right? Because that's a process you got to go through to get to the fact that it did happen for you. And and to be honest, nobody can tell that person but themselves. So all you can do is lead them down the path to ask the questions that they answered in the end. And they go, Oh my God. I see that I created it. I didn't tell you that. You told yourself. Right? Because we've taken this journey together and now you're ready, as Anne said, to take the responsibility. But the challenge is we're just not taught that in society. Society wants to make you a victim. He did that to you. How terrible is he? Well, you know, you know, and and then that just feeds into it, right? And then you then they go, Yeah, you're right, he did that to me. Oh my god, you know. Um, or she did that to me, whatever it is, right? And so you've got to be careful who you share it with. Because you don't want to reinforce a negative.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

So at what point does healing stop being about the other person and start becoming about yourself?

SPEAKER_05 45:50

Sooner rather than later, I'm right. Some people it never does, right? You know? And but for some people, it it's not a choice because they don't even realize it. They're blind to it, right? Right. They're blind to it. And they'll keep repeating the same patterns, and what will they say? Why does this keep happening to me? What am what you know, why, why, why? Why doesn't God love me anymore? Why, why am I unlovable? All these crazy questions. And why is an endless loop question, right? Forget about why. Let's focus on how and how we can stop it, right? And how we can end it. Not you don't have a relationship problem, you have a pattern problem. And if we never change the pattern, you'll keep repeating it, right? It doesn't make you a bad person. There's nothing wrong with you. You're not unlovable, you're totally lovable, right? And the the the problem you have with that sometimes is people have been told so long for so long that they're unlovable. When you say they're lovable, they go, Yeah, no, you don't know me.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:45

Right?

SPEAKER_01 46:46

They don't believe me.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

So we gotta we've got to break through that. We've got to break through beliefs, right? And then you take them through a process of realizing that they are, right? So, you know, and that's can be uh, you know, I'll try and make it funny and light a little bit, you know. So hold on a second. You were born and God created you, is that correct? Yeah, he created me. Okay. And God's mean, right? No. No.

unknown 47:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 47:08

So you're telling me that of all the billions of people on earth, he decided that he was gonna make you unlovable. Is that what you're telling me? And then I'd rather start to question it.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

I was gonna say, then they can hear how ridiculous that that sounds.

SPEAKER_05 47:21

You see what I mean? Yes. Exactly. Can you imagine a God not loving a child?

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_05 47:30

Right? Well, you know what? You're still a child. You might have grown up physically, but that child is you. You're still that child. So you're telling me God would turn his back on you or her back, whichever way you want to look at it, right? Uh is that what you're saying? Because if you are, I I can call God right now and tell him that that's what you think, because that's not gonna go down.

unknown 47:52

Right.

SPEAKER_05 47:53

Right. Let's get him on the line right now and let's talk this out. Right? Yeah. And then you tell God that he sucks, because I'm not gonna say it.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Right? Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 48:10

How would that go down? What do you think God would say? I didn't tell you what God would say, not even to think about it, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:16

Now you realize that what do you realize? God loves me. Okay? So you are lovable then, because if God loves you, you must be lovable, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:25

So right.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

You know what I mean? Now that you mention it.

SPEAKER_05 48:30

But we but we also have to realize that sometimes being a victim gets you all the attention you want. Hey, people feel sorry for me. People are always asking me how I am, and I get attention. So that can be addictive, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:47

So sometimes people want to hold on to that victimness because they don't know anything else. And you know, your book is called The Devil I Loved, right? Well, sometimes people say it's better the devil I know than the devil I don't.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:59

At least I know this pain and I know I can handle this, but I don't know what it's gonna be like to go out there in the world and be loved. Right? Because what if they love me one minute and they don't love me the next? Well, that's call life, dear, right? Yeah, yeah. So you've got to work at it, right? You know, you know? So, and then we get into you know how to be in a relationship. Because then some people say, Well, we're married now, that's it, and I don't have to work at it anymore. I'm like, listen, that's the beginning, right? That's the beginning, right? Not the end, you know. And guys, you know, we're all we're all uh we're all guilty of it, right? So, you know, a woman says to a guy in a therapy, she says, you know, you never tell me I love you. You love me, and he'll go, listen, I told you I love you five years ago. What's your problem? You know what I mean? So we gotta do this, right? Because to him, I mean I'm exaggerating, but to him that makes sense, right? Yeah, what do you mean I told you, right? You know? Anyway, yeah. But it's also uh, you know, if we didn't have resistance, if we didn't have these challenges, then why are we here? You know, if we all came into this experience fully enlightened, we know everything, which I believe we do in our true essence as a spirit, but we have to forget that to come into this lifetime, but we don't have to take it so seriously. We don't have to think seriously, right? Once you can adopt these beliefs and behaviors and new patterns, life can change radically. You're never going to be perfect in the eyes of everybody, but you want to meet the person who thinks you're perfect. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_05 50:37

Not because you're not a pain in the ass sometimes, not because you do everything the right way, but they love you anyway, right? Right. And it's not the perfection that we love in other people, it's the imperfection.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

That's sure.

SPEAKER_05 50:50

It's what makes it feel different and draws us to that. And if we've got we're with someone that's imperfect, then we can be we can feel better about our imperfection, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

That's exactly right. I like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:04

Well, good.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Well, I have to ask, what does she think about the book?

SPEAKER_05 51:10

Wow, interesting you would ask, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Thank you for asking that. I am dying to know.

SPEAKER_05 51:16

Yeah. Well, so here's how she found out I'd written the book, right? Right. How I have no idea, right? But she found out wrote the book. So uh she posted on my social media a picture of the book on her iPad and a cup of coffee, like she was gonna read the book. And underneath it said, Oh, you know, this book is about me, WTF, right? So I didn't, like I said, I never ever responded to anything. So then she began texting me, right? So if you think about it, the only reason she came back into my life, besides the fact that I've been thinking about her and she felt better, so she did. But from her angle, it was how can I get what I want? Exactly. So what does she want? What does she want?

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Money, attention, I was gonna say, since the book is about her, she wanted her piece of the pie.

SPEAKER_05 52:08

Exactly. She was a piece of the pie, right? Which, by the way, when I was writing the book, because my niece would say, What are you gonna do if she comes back? I go, she, you know, whatever. I mean, if she the part she played a part in the story, you know. So I you know, if she wants money, I have no problem. But when she did it the way she did it, it told me that I cannot even go close. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:28

Because she's still so toxic, right? So then um, so then she started texting me and again trying to trying to bait me, right? You know, so what I hadn't replied. I was out for breakfast with my dad, right? So I'm like, I'm not gonna start picking up my phone and texting her anyway, right? But like an hour later, she's like, what's gonna give you the courage to respond to me? Then five minutes later, this is so disrespectful. And all this stuff starts pouring out, you know, and I want uh, you know, I want some money for I don't know if you read I don't know if you've read the book, the new one, because I took, I had to take some of the things out because they were too identifying, right, for her. Because I'm gonna protect her privacy and stay out of jail. So she has a dog. Did your version of the book talk about her dog? Probably not.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

No.

SPEAKER_05 53:12

But she has the dog, and the dog was in the book originally. And it's a it's a great dog. It's a little potty poodle, right? Anyway, and she said, I you know, I I I just want a percentage for for the dog's name is disco, right? No surprise there. The dog's name is disco, right? And she says, I just want some of the I want some of the royalties for disco, right? What's disco gonna do with the royalties, right? Right. She wants money. And I feel I felt like I was now being uh what's the word? Not embezzled. Uh black mouth.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

Yeah, blackmound.

SPEAKER_05 53:44

Yeah, that's another word, but yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, um, anyway, so I'm like, that's not gonna work. And then so then she gets mad and she starts contacting all the podcasts I've been on, saying I want to come on the podcast because that's not a true story, it's all lies, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 54:02

I still didn't do anything. I'm like, fine, it's just gonna land where it needs to land, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:06

So she becomes angry and angry, and I'm thinking, you know what, you realize, look, you haven't communicated with me in 10 years. And the only reason you're coming back is because you want something.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:19

But on the one hand, she's doing all these things that she doesn't think I even know about, of course I do. And she's going into chat rooms online and women's chat rooms and saying, he made me a sex slave and all this stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:31

Oh my lord. She's so amazing, isn't she?

SPEAKER_05 54:34

She is amazing, right? She's a little manipulative, a little bit. And then I found out that she'd been arrested. Well, I I knew she'd been arrested because I bailed her out, right? But finally I said, you know what I should do? I should probably get all the police reports of everything that happened.

SPEAKER_04 54:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 54:48

Which I'd never done before. Holy crap, I found out all kinds of things that I didn't know. So when I bailed her out, she'd done the same thing to this guy that she tried to do to me. Take his house, take all his belongings, and she did. She did. Oh no. He went on vacation and she took everything, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:06

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 55:07

So now he comes back trying to get things resolved, and he had a horrible time with the police. They couldn't find her, there was no evidence, but she'd taken all his furniture from his house, everything, and then absolutely ransacked the house, thrown the bed out of the window, smashed it. Question. So one last second.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

He would not get arrested for this stuff. I mean, a I don't even know. Put in jail. If I did any of that, I would somebody Shannon would have to come get me out.

SPEAKER_05 55:39

It's a freaking miracle, and I know, right? So you know what else, right? So you know you meet her father in the book, right? Right. So he steps forward to the police and said, I'll help you. And the the state attorney called me way back when and said, We're putting a file together. There's a new law. It's called the Black Widow. When the when women do this kind of thing and they go state to state, exactly a laws, and there's no connection between the state creating a network so that we can bring these things together. And a father has said that he'll testify.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Oh, it's about time that they're creating that network because this happens a lot more than people realize.

SPEAKER_05 56:19

Yeah, for sure, right? So anyway, I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not going near it, right? I can't go anywhere near that because I can't get sucked into that again. I don't want to get sucked into that again. Right. And she used to make me feel she didn't make me, I would feel sorry for her.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:35

Right? Why? Because I was an idiot. But the bottom line is, right? But that's what would happen, right? And she would play on that, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Right. She knew that you had a soft heart, that you would do whatever she wanted, and she was really good.

SPEAKER_03 56:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:50

Right. Yeah. So with me not responding, eventually she went away. She's probably going to come back at some point. I'll get another test, right? Probably and.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

But you're not going to respond, right?

SPEAKER_05 57:08

No response, yeah. And not to be not to be unkind, but actually to be kind, to take care of myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Yeah.

unknown 57:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

There's a oh, and there's the old saying, burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me.

SPEAKER_05 57:26

Yeah, and I say that in the book of go. Burn me once, shame on you. Exactly. Burn me twice, shame on you, shame on me. Burn me five times, then you're gonna take me away.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

Right? Right. Then I need a free scent somewhere where they bring me dinner every night. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 57:44

Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah. It's a great quote. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

One of my favorite parts in the book. I loved it. I could picture it because Ann and I are big cruisers. We go on cruises at least once a year. Oh, yeah. So the whole cruise scene on celebrity.

SPEAKER_04 58:01

We had, yes. Did I read you on it? I read here, you've been on a celebrity cruise, right? I'm thinking, oh my god, we've been on the same cruise line. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Yes. No, I don't have the experience of knowing what the penthouse suite is like because we can't afford to have the no. I can imagine what it's like.

SPEAKER_05 58:21

Yeah, but it was amazing. But we ruined that too. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

I had to laugh at the people above you because if Ann and I had been lucky enough to be the ones above y'all, we would have been observing as well. Oh heck yeah, I would have been drunking my camera down, waiting to see the death part.

SPEAKER_05 58:44

Right, right. Well, and and then she do you remember that she says that, right? I'm mortified. And she goes, listen. She said, people were complaining. She said, listen, why don't they just walk away? They didn't have to watch, right? They were all having a good time. I went, you probably got a point there, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Yeah, exactly. She did. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 59:02

Oh my God. And then the crew were coming up the staircase, right? Because they went down to the lower death. And she just went, stop. You dare come up those stairs. I will sue this cruise land. And they went, they weren't running back down, right? Holy crap. You just do not mess with this woman. And then when the boys, my friends, came over late, she was in bed. And they came over and we go upstairs and she threw them out, right? Yeah. Because finally, you know, they showed the head over the top of the balcony. And Jerry and Ross. Oh my God. It's like a scene out of the three stooges, right?

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Exactly. Yeah. So when they make the book into the movie, you know, the series, I'm sure Netflix is probably going to pick it up.

unknown 59:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Or Amazon Prime. You know she'll be coming back around then, too.

SPEAKER_05 59:47

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

But listen, if that happens, you just give us girls a call. We will set you straight. We will not let you stray. We love this.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

We're happy to be your bodyguards.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:01

Right. Right. You do think yeah, I'm telling you, you will be. Right. But you know, it's kind of like everything works out perfectly because she showed her face. She showed herself again. Right. And so she starts making threats, and I just went, you know. Whatever. Do what do whatever you're gonna do. Do whatever you're gonna do. So when it comes out, the difference now is I have all the text she sent me. The recent text. I have all the the police reports of what happened. Good. I've changed certain things in the book so she's not easily identifiable. Right? But she's telling everybody, she's going online saying, I'm the Venus flytrap, you know? That's now you told I didn't tell anybody you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

That's doubted yourself. But it's it's good you have the receipts now. So if she tries to receipts, that's what they call it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

It's always good to see a you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:01

You know, you're right. I usually don't, and I didn't when I first rolled the board. Because I, for whatever reason, through my naivete, I didn't come out like that. I thought she'd just say, Oh, this is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

No, not that kind of woman, Steven. She exactly she's never going away.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:18

But even, you know, I have a team of ladies that work with me, right? So uh in the beginning, they're all like, you know, they're like, is this really true? You know what I mean? And then half of them were going, she's amazing. I'd like to be her, right? And I'm going, okay, maybe I was put the slant too far one side. Anyway, but then what happened when she came back and they were seeing what she was writing in social media, what was going on. They're like, now they're scared of her. And they live in the Philippines, right? Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

Yeah. Very crazy. She's uh, yeah, she needs to be on the black widow list.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:51

Yeah. A little bit of crazy is okay. Yeah. That's a little bit we've all got that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

We all have a little bit of.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:57

Of course we do. Absolutely. Yeah. I even said in the book that we're all a little insane, right? Yeah. We all live on the spectrum of insanity. Somewhere. Because I mean, show me a normal person, right? They don't exist. There isn't a normal person because normal to you is not normal to somebody else, right? Exactly. We've all got our perception of normal, right? So, so yeah, yeah. Um amazing experience. Don't want to go through it again. Glad I did. Helped me tremendously, and I'm grateful for that. Um, but yeah, you know, I went through a lot of healing through that experience. Still got a ways to go, but I'm in a much better position to deal with it now. And uh I'm much happier being with myself. I feel so much better.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

My friend, your eyes are wide open. Yeah, you're gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:45

Yeah, and if they're not, I'm just gonna call you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:50

We're here for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:51

We're here for you for you. Fly down there.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:53

You're my backup girls.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

Yeah, we will come down there. We will make sure you don't make any mistakes.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:00

Imagine me coming back on and going, ladies, what do you think? And you're going. Okay, sit your ass down. I'm gonna get some wine.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

Yeah, I mean, that's what's happening. That doesn't work. We'll get on a plane. I mean, whatever it takes.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

Yeah, we'll fly right down to Florida.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

I love Florida anyway, so I'm okay with coming to visit.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:26

Where do you like going to, Anna? What do you like best in Florida?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

I am a huge Sanibel person. I love Sanibel Island. I love Captiva. I am um Bowman's Beach is my jam.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:37

I don't know Bowman's Beach.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

Uh the best shelling in the world. It's literally a bowl.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

And yeah, we came out of there with conch shells like this. I mean, just really pretty stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:50

So yeah, it's a really well I know, I definitely know Sanabel and I know Captiva, and they're beautiful. Not a lot of people know about them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

No, they don't.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:57

It's it's well, I'm on the east coast. Sarasota's a little bit further north.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

Oh, that's a nice area.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:02

And I live near the Keys, you know, Lombow Key and Siestike, which is very blessed to live here.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:09

Yes, you are very blessed.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:10

It's you guys, if you you guys come down here, you gotta let me know and we'll go and have sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

Don't put that out there, Stephen, unless you're serious, because we will take you up on it.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:20

I'm serious. Yeah, we'll go to a flower store. I'll buy you both a Venus flytrap.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

I would love it. Actually, you should have one many years ago. Me too. Did you really?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:29

Yeah, I did too. You know, I gave my neighbor the book. I gave my neighbor the book, and like two days later, I go out the front door, and she's put a Venus flytrap on my doorstep. She put me come over and I was not there or I was busy, and she just left on the doorstep. I still killed it though. But by accident, I tried to keep it alive, but I'm, you know, I'm so irresponsible, ladies. You know, they say as an addict, the first thing you should take care of is a plant, right? So I've never been formally uh determined to be an addict, but I know I was addicted to her. So, you know, if you you can't take care of a flower, do not be in a relationship, right? So I I I still have to pass that test, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Okay. There's a plant for everybody, Stephen. Get your pathos ivy. They'll grow for anybody, even my daughter, who kills everything. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:20

Only you can say that, Anne. Only you can say that. She's your daughter, yes. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:25

Well, Stephen, this conversation felt like one of those late night talks that people desperately need but rarely have with honest. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:37

We do desperately need that. You're right. And it's so important to laugh. And you guys have a great sense of humor, which you know I'm gonna play on forever because but you know, and then this is interesting, you know, you realize when you have a great sense of humor. The humor comes from pain.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:52

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:53

Humor comes from pain.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:54

But that's what gives you the soul, the depth, right? To be relate to relate people to Not judge to accept people for who they really are, right? Not make them into what you want them to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:07

So I just can say it's been a blessing for me to be on here with you. A blessing and a privilege. And I'd love to do it again. And if you come to Florida, I am not joking. You have to come and see me. We've got to go hang out.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

Steven, this has been really, yeah, really healing for me. You've said some things that have resonated with me personally. Thank you for that. I've really enjoyed talking to you tonight.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

Before we continue, I want to share something really special we've created for this community. If you've ever listened to an episode and felt something deeper, like a moment that stayed with you or a story that made you reflect on your own life, we wanted to give you a place to go with that. We've officially launched our Travel Time Stories membership, where you can go beyond listening and become part of the experience. Inside the membership, you'll get access to the Story Circle, our private community where we reflect on each episode through guided journal prompts, share our stories, and connect through monthly meetups. There are also additional tiers with opportunities to go even deeper from storytelling and sharing your voice to being part of the creative journey behind the scenes and joining us on our yearly group travels. If this speaks to you, you can join us through the link in the show notes or visit our website, travel timestories.com. We would truly love to have you join the community. Exactly. Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story and your insights and your laughter. It's been great. I love finding somebody that's like us with the sarcastic humor. Not a lot of people are, but right, right.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:00

And by the way, uh I've got it written down here. We're gonna send you book two, and I can't wait to hear what you think.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:05

Awesome. We'll let you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:06

We'll review it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:07

Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of that, Steven, where can listeners find out more about you and get your book?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:14

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, so I think I sent you the link, right? That people can get the first three chapters for free. And or uh, I'm gonna change that actually to the seven signs you're in a toxic relationship. And never go back into one, right? And I've done it, I've done an additional book actually with it called Welcome Home. Oh. You go through it and you take the lessons and realize it didn't happen to you, it happened for you. It was all supposed to happen, and the gifts that are in it, um you come home. Come home to yourself. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:45

Yeah, I called mine the map back to me.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:48

Oh, beautiful. I love that, right? And I love the The Devil I Loved. That's gonna that's gonna be a TV series and a movie. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

From your mouth to Netflix or Amazon Prime, Stephen, because that's what I'm hoping to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:01

Can you imagine when we're doing that and we're celebrating together, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

Wouldn't that be great? I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:07

Yeah. I mean, that is a great title. I mean, that's a great title.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:11

And we're kind of aligned with what we're trying to do here because we're trying to build a community too, where people feel safe to open up and share their stories and receive healing from that. So yeah, we're kind of aligned on the same path here.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:26

Very so there's nothing wrong with being part of two communities, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

Exactly. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:33

Different things from each, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:36

So the other thing is that you can reach me over the other uh link I send you is to have a complimentary 30-minute session with me to see if we align. You know, not ever not everybody aligns. Sometimes it's not right. But I tell people, look, you're gonna interview you would interview me and I'm gonna interview you. Neither of us want to waste each other's time.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:54

So part of working with me is convincing me that you're ready to do the work. You know? That you're committed to that. Sometimes people say, What do you mean? I'm paying you. And you go, listen, you pay to go to the gym, but you never go, right? Exactly. It's not about that. I'm not interested in your money, I'm interested in your transformation.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:12

Right? Where to get you out of wherever you are and to wherever you want to be. So yeah, there's a link for that. There's a, I think I we sent you probably the website. You can go to the website and just have fun, right? There's all kinds of stuff on there, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:24

Oh, yeah, I love the song too, by the way.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:26

Oh, yeah, what amazing ladies blew me away when I when I heard that song.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:35

That is incredible. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:37

It's powerful, very powerful. Made me cry. Yeah. Made me cry. Oh, yeah, same.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:42

Yeah. Beautiful song. Yeah, so if nothing else, go listen to the song. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:46

Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:49

But but honestly, the first three chapters of that book, you will not want to put it down. Um, you're gonna want to keep reading. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:58

Well, good.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:59

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:00

Book two will be on its way. Now, of course, it's Saturday, so it'll be on Monday, right? When we send it out to you. It'll be it'll be in your dropped in your email. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:08

I appreciate that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:10

And I really, really do want to hear your thoughts about it and your observations because we will review it and send you a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:16

Definitely because I'm I'm working on my review for book one now, so I'll be posting. Okay, well, that'll be awesome, ladies.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:23

Thank you so much. Thank you. I would appreciate that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:25

And to our listeners, this episode share this episode with someone you feel needs to hear it. Get a copy of the Venus Fly Trap. It's a fascinating read, and like it's great for those who spend their nights alone. Let me tell you, it will help you out.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:44

I got you. Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:46

And remember, sometimes the hardest relationship to heal is the love we have with ourselves. So we will have Steven's links in the show notes, which will include the link for the first three chapters of his book and a link with the discount code for the counseling sessions. And it will also be on our website, traveltimestories.com, where each guest has a dedicated page so you can learn more about them and listen to their episodes. And we invite you to join our Facebook community, the story circle, where we all come to the table and have a safe, supportive space where you can tell the truth about our lives, share our stories openly, heal through connection, and rediscover ourselves without judgment, mass, or expectations.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:32

And until next time, keep traveling your stories and keep making memories for life.