Good Grief Travel: Rebuilding Life After Loss (feat. Derrik Dyka)

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I didn't have to think about anything. I was already overwhelmed with what I had to do and what was in front of me. And my whole life had changed. I had a my wife and I had a plan. We were two years from executing that plan, and now my plan is gone. So when people could offer to do something or even just have a meal was so nice to to just get out of the house and converse. So my advice if you know someone that's hurting is to to offer to do something specific or get them out of the house.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Every journey has a story. And every story has the power to heal. My story hasn't been ordinary. I was adopted, I'm a survivor of abuse and trauma, and I have more than a dozen siblings. That's just the beginning of my story. Life has taken me on a long and winding road of healing and personal growth. A journey that ultimately led me back to myself and the path I was meant to walk. Along the way, I discovered that stories have power. The power to connect us, to help us grow, and even to help us heal. This is Travel Time Stories with Shannon. Real journeys, real stories, and real healing. So what do you do when the person you've shared your life with for decades is suddenly gone?

SPEAKER_02 1:32

When the future you planned no longer exists.

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And every place, every memory, every routine reminds you of what you lost.

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Sometimes healing doesn't arrive in a breakthrough moment.

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Sometimes it arrives quietly.

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A conversation with a stranger, a shared meal, a long walk in a foreign city, or simply deciding to remain open to life again.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I'm your host Shannon, and this is Travel Time Stories, where we share real journeys, real stories, and real healing.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

And I am your co-host Ann. Today's conversation is about grief, reinvention, resilience, and the unexpected ways travel can help us reconnect with ourselves after life changes forever.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Our guest today is Derek Dica. I hope I said that correctly.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Yep, yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Author of Good Grief Travel, a memoir about loss, healing, loneliness, community, and rebuilding life after the death of his wife of 24 years.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

After experiencing profound loss, Derek found himself traveling between the United States and Asia, discovering that healing often happened not in grand moments, but through everyday human connection.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Derek, welcome to the show. We're so glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

We are too. So everybody, grab your favorite beverage and let's get into it. So before we talk about grief, I'd love to talk about life before everything changed. So can you tell us a little bit about your wife and your life together?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Wow, I'm not sure where to begin, but we we we met in college a long time ago. And we had, you know, a three or four month romance that was interrupted by an ex-boyfriend that, to make a long story short, threatened to kill me, broke into my apartment, and she she cut that off and said, This guy's gonna kill you, and I'm never gonna, I'm not gonna be able to live with myself. So uh we broke up and that was in Las Vegas. We went to UNLV and we had a photography class together. That's where we met. Six years later, I had moved back to Minnesota where I grew up. And at one point I was digging through an old box of college stuff, and I found a card that she had written me with the return address, and I just wrote a quick note that said, I'd love to know what you're up to, and we got married six weeks later.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Oh my gosh, what an incredible story! That's such amazing.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, we just decided to do it, and uh, we were married 24 years.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Wow. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

You know, t 24 years is a lifetime of memories. What made your relationship special, Derek?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Uh I'm a I'm a bit of a wild card, and I think she she let me be who uh who I am. I didn't I've learned a lot about myself just from writing, and what I realize is I kind of say yes to a lot of things. I just I allow life to happen, and if the risk is minimal, I'm kind of all in. And she gave me permission to be that guy, and I was supportive of her career. She was a career woman, and we just gave each other the space, I think, that kept it healthy. Uh, and we were also very close. We had twin boys that are 24 years old now, today. And um, we were very active in in parenting and youth sports and travel. We took took them all over the world. They've been to 40 or so countries. I can't quite remember the count, but that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Wow. Like kids. Wow. Yeah, very lucky kids to get to have those experiences. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

I I was adamant that I wanted the kids to go to private school. And we when they were in kindergarten or first grade, we toured a number of schools and private schools. And we we before we got married, we were both financially doing pretty well, and then we had kids and and uh that we were not doing financially very well. It kind of got back on track slowly, and she said, you know, if we hit another road bump, what how are we gonna pay for school? So she said, why don't we take that budget of whatever the cost? I don't remember quite exactly what it was, but six or eight thousand dollars a year for private school and set it aside for travel and take them to experience new places around the world. So that was really her outlook and her idea, and and we enrolled with that. So we every year we've got a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

That's an amazing Yeah, that's an amazing role uh for travel to play in your relationship, not just your marriage, but also with your sons as well. And the experiences that they've had, I'm sure, over all those years of traveling far outweigh what they learned in a schoolroom.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

You know, it was funny in in fourth grade, I think one of my kids' teachers pulled me aside at the end of the day and said she needed to talk to me. And so my wife came with me the following day and she said, Your son has been lying in class. And I said, Well, it doesn't sound like him. What what's he lying about? And she said, Well, we're doing this thing on the seven wonders of the world or whatever. And I said, Okay, well apparently he was saying he had been to these places, and I so I said, Well, what are the what places are can you name them? And she said, Well, uh Eiffel Tower and the pyramids in Egypt, and I you know, I don't quite remember. I said, Well, he's been to those places. She couldn't quite believe it. But uh, and that was in fourth, fourth or fifth grade.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

I think travel exposes kids to a lot of uh cultural differences, makes them more world-wise, more street smart. It's it's so healthy for them.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Well, my wife is Chinese, so they're they're mixed kids and they have a little bit of that uh culture and from that side of the family. I remember I I guess I don't remember the age exactly, but six or seven, my wife had a business trip to South Dakota, and my son Griffin asked her what kind of money do they use there, which I thought was such a intuitive question. I mean, obviously it's the United States, but what the seven-year-old thinks about other currencies, you know. So that was fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Not any.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

That's really good. I can't think of any seven-year-old that thinks about that. So that's amazing. So loss changes everything. And what was that period like after your wife passed away?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

It was super dark for me. Uh it was very unexpected. From diagnosis to the end was less than two months. So we uh there wasn't a whole lot of planning or or much of anything, and so I went from like a happy married life uh to being solo. And I didn't know what to do, to be honest. I I'm more or less self-employed my entire life, and when she was sick, I backed out of my business, and I'm still a silent partner, but I I just needed to step away. And then I was home and just trying to figure it out, and my it was really my son Gabin kept saying, Dad, you you gotta you gotta go do something. And I had started swimming for fitness a few years before that, and I we my wife and I had often gone to Mexico, so I started open water swimming in the ocean, and I someone said something about Bali being this uh healing place, and that was on my list, so I I didn't want to go back to Mexico. That was something I had done with my wife a million times, and I bought round trip tickets at kind of at my son's insistence to Tokyo, thinking I would make my way to Bali, and uh I I didn't really have a plan. I booked a 30 days round trip to Tokyo, I could and uh I was gonna wing it as as and so I did, and I ended up in the Philippine Islands instead, and that was an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Oh wow, incredible!

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah, I it was right up right near Halloween, and I thought, well, Tokyo, you know, they have the the cosplay and the anime stuff. I thought Halloween would be this amazing thing to see in in Japan, in Tokyo, and I wasn't I didn't love Tokyo as a solo traveler, and I wasn't ready for kind of the isolation of of what Tokyo is. And um I ended up going on a a bar tour, a bar hopping tour. It was organized, and I told the guy that I was looking forward to Halloween, and he told me that not long ago a few people were trampled. It's so busy, like it's truly like a zoo. I'm like, I'm guessing I'm not gonna do that. And and I booked a flight the next day to uh Cebu in the Philippines and and ended up in Palawan for about two weeks. But it was I had no plan. I didn't know what I was doing. I just kind of went with the flow and that's where I that's where I landed.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Yeah. Okay, that's when some of the best things happen to you, is when you just flying by the seat of your pants.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Well, and that that was the trend. I s I I did end up in Bali after the Philippines. I went for a few days. I I it wasn't my favorite place, and I came home back to Minnesota. My sons and I had already planned to go to a convention in Las Vegas right after Thanksgiving. So I was home for Thanksgiving. We flew to Las Vegas, and I think when we were in Las Vegas, I had booked another round trip ticket. I truthfully I don't remember to where, but I've in the last two and a half years I've been to 17 countries, I don't know how many cities, and and many of those countries, China and Thailand in particular, I've been to dozens of times at this point. So those are my two go-to spots.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

That's incredible. You're not the first person that I've heard that said Bali wasn't what they expected it to be. They weren't really impressed by it. Now I have heard we had a a guest on uh before, and she went to Bali, but it was back in like the 80s, and she said that was before it became all commercialized and everything, and she said it was absolutely incredible, but that she wouldn't go now the way it is current day.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

So I think it depends a lot on the area as well. I was in Kangu, if I recall, and that's young and nightclub y, at least in my opinion. It was not a scene I wanted to be part of. But I think Ubud or Ubud, I'm not sure the pronunciation, I think that's Ubud, the more relaxing, uh maybe healing place. I didn't make it, and I was only in Bali for, I don't know, four days. But the islands in the Philippines were majestic. I I went island hopping and it was truly incredible. It was open water swimming every day and swimming in reefs, it was beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Oh that sounds wonderful. Plus, they have great food there too.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and inexpensive.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

So, Derek, people often ask how someone is doing after loss, but what question do you wish people would ask you instead?

SPEAKER_00 12:49

That that's a great question in itself. And I I've thought about this a lot and I actually wrote about it on my blog. But the the one thing that I started to I I don't want to sound uh not grateful, but people would say, you know, what can I do for you? And I I wrote a a piece on this. Like that that's a very unhelpful question. It it puts the onus back on me or whoever you're asking to come up with something to so what I learned is the people that actually offered to do something was so much more helpful, and I didn't have to think about anything. I was already overwhelmed with what I had to do and what was in front of me.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

And and and my whole life had changed. I had a my wife and I had a plan. We were two years from executing that plan, and now my plan is gone. So when people could offer to do something or even just have a meal, it was so nice to just get out of the house and converse. So my advice, if you know someone that's hurting, is to offer to do something specific or get them out of the house or you know, do something social. Depends on the person, I suppose. But one of my neighbors, I don't remember who exactly, not long after my wife passed, had set up a meal train. And oh, and I didn't even know what that was. I got an email that said somebody, you know, that whoever it was, the name had set up a meal train for your family. And my God, that was amazing. Like we had meals for my sons and I, who were pretty lost, all three of us at the time. They they were in college uh when my wife was ill, and they got permission to finish the semester at home. So the it was the three of us living at home, and almost every night of the week, some delivery of some kind of food would show up, and it was all organized through the app so people could pick a day. And that that was uh that was one of my most amazing, you know, gifts from people is to not have to worry about food, which is so simple. But that was helpful. And to me, that that uh that's much better than saying, you know, what can I do for you? Someone just actually did something and it's very specific and people joined the uh the effort. So I'm not sure if that answered your question very well, but it's it's actually offering to to help and instead of saying, you know, what can I do?

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Right. It actually did. And that's one of the best answers I've ever heard to that question.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Because when you're in that state, you can't think. Your mind is whirling and you just you don't want to make a decision. You really don't.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

So Yeah, you're already making decisions you don't want to make.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

And you're not sure what you're doing. Like are you even doing this correctly? I don't I don't know how to operate in this world where my world's been taken away. So yeah, thank you for that compliment, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah. I I like that about the the food chain. Growing up in the south, that's one thing that in the south everybody does is if there's a death in the family or in the neighborhood or whatever, all the neighbors gather together and bring food to the families so the families have meals for days and don't have to worry about it. And not a lot of places do that, but I have seen the meal train like what you're talking about. My um cousin passed away a few years ago, and he's in California, and I'm in Texas, and I'm like, how can I help? You know, I want to do something to help, but I'm here, he's there, or his family's there. And uh that's what my aunt did. She set up a meal train, and so I was able to go online then and you know, contribute to the meal train. So I was contributing in some way, even though I couldn't physically be there to cook for them or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Well, and I will I'll just add a shout out to Caring Bridge, and there's probably other apps. But when you're going through something, especially when it's sudden and you don't communicating with people becomes a little more taxing on top of already dealing with the problem. And Caring Bridge does a it does exactly that. It bridges you to the community and you can update people without having to take a hundred phone calls. So that I it just a recommendation if if you're in the situation where you need to update a lot of people, that that works very well because those phone calls and you're having the same conversation, it's kind of reliving the pain that you're dealing with every time you talk. Yeah, it's horrible. I don't think you really realize that when you're asking those questions what it's doing to the party that's reliving it, you know, every conversation. I'm not complaining, but it it it kind of takes away having to explain things. And when you have when you actually do talk to someone, you it's it's different. You know, it's more of a friendly conversation instead of explaining and updating. Exactly. Which is what you need to hear.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Exactly. You know.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

That's the first that I've heard of that app. So that's good to know about that. That that's really great. I remember um when my dad passed away and me having to make all the phone calls to all the family to inform them and everything because mom wasn't able to, but that would have been wonderful. Of course, that was back in the day before, you know, it's an internet, but to to now know they have an app that can help you do stuff like that. That's wonderful. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

It it's called Carrying Bridge, and it tells you like it was amazing because I told my wife's boss and I told some family members, and I maybe at some point I put it on Facebook or something, but it shows you how many people are following, and at one point it, you know, it was almost 500 people. I'm like, I probably shared it with 40. Oh, wow. You know, it spreads and people tell other people, and that that was really truly amazing.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah, that is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

That would be supportive for the family too, I would think. Just just to see those messages and people caring.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Exactly. So what's what would you say surprised you the most about grief?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

I think I'm still trying to define what grief is, to be honest. I I really don't know. And I I don't know that I'm through it. Whatever grief is, I'm I'm actually I'm doing okay, I would say. But you know, if nothing else, it it it's kind of taken that plan away and the direction in your life, which is an awful feeling when you think you know where you're gonna be in five or ten years, and and then you don't. And and your plan included somebody and and so my wife and I had planned to buy a mountain home in Colorado, and now that's the last thing I want. I I feel like I would be isolated, and who would I talk to? And and I ought to be honest, I live in Bangkok, one of the craziest cities in the world. So I'm in Minnesota right now, but I I have an apartment in in Bangkok, which has become my uh my home, uh, I guess. And I'm I'm there more than anywhere. But it's also my hub. I I can travel through Asia quite easily. There's two international airports, but I got really sidetracked from answering your question. I grief is hard to explain. And and for me it was just emotionless. I I didn't I didn't know what to do and I didn't know where to go.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Yeah.

unknown 20:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

And and one thing I think is everybody wants to say to you, uh, oh, just give it time, you'll get over it, or whatever. That is I hate when people say that because that is so not true. You're you're gonna grieve for the rest of your life. You'll you'll have that loss for the rest of your life. Now, will you not move forward because of it? No. You're you're obviously moving forward every day. You have children to to continue on for, and you know, you'll hopefully eventually find your passion or another love or whatever later on down the line. But that you never get over the loss of a person, whether it's your spouse, your parents, your sibling, your child. It's something that you never get over.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah, and she was my grounding force. I was like, like I said, I'm a wild card and I I make big decisions on a whim. And now I ask. Sorry, I laugh because I I've done some crazy stuff in my life. Uh but I just give things a try and I think what's the worst that can happen? I'm I'm I'm always I've always been that guy. I didn't realize, but I wrote about it and I'm like, huh, that's an interesting life. But I ask myself almost daily now, what would Son, or my wife's name was Sun, what would Sun say to this? And uh that it's actually she's still my guide, whether she knows it or not. And I you know, I think about my sons and would they approve? Is this a good idea? So I'm still using that as a basis. I'm I'm answering the question for myself, but but I'm trying to kind of see it through her splendid.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah. Hey, sometimes that helps to kind of break it down and and you know, get a new perspective.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

She gave me some strange instructions at the end, and I'm I'm trying to live up to them, as at least most of them. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

I I think you're probably doing pretty darn good. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

It's been a wild ride. I I'm I'm not in the United States very often. I consider. Consider a lot of other places more of a home than Minnesota has ever been to me. I I it just a few months ago, I was in Shanghai and uh in China, and I was there for 12 days, stayed at three different hotels, and one of them I had never really been to the French concession, so it was a new area for me. And I ended up going to the same cafe every morning, which I kind of do any everywhere I go. Uh I pick a place and that's my morning place. But the third day, I was I was only had been there two days. My third day I walked in, and they didn't speak English, but she said cappuccino, she knew my order, and I was like, it's such a it's amazing what that feels like. I don't know how many times I'd have to go to Starbucks before they would ever know my order, you know, in Minnesota anyway. But in Shanghai, and I I mean I stand out, but it's an international city. There's plenty of people that look at least similar to me. But I I to me it was very uh heartwarming and uh it felt great. And I was looking forward to coming back the following day.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Just so somebody would know something. I like that. That's that means a lot when they personalize your experience like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

And I've I've had that in so many cities. Uh uh there's restaurants that that know me and the staff know me a lot in Bangkok, but I don't have to go there many times. I'm I'm on maybe a bit of a personality too, so I break through some doors. But it it just feels good. I have a breakfast restaurant in Bangkok that I've been going to forever. I write about it a lot in my book. It's I I actually really enjoy going back and seeing them like once a month. And and they I can tell they're like, oh, he's back. I wonder where he's been. You know, they ask me, where have you been?

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah. That's great. So your book is titled Good Grief Travel. And that's that's a fascinating title. So how did you come up with that?

SPEAKER_00 23:48

I w I wanted to just share some travel tips as I was doing this, in part because people were asking me, like, how did you find this or how did you make that work? And I couldn't come up with I wanted grief to be in the title because I I thought it was important to my journey. And I wasn't trying to like create a business so much as just share some details that I thought would be helpful. And so I started a blog, or was in the process of trying to start a blog, but I couldn't name it. And I wanted good grief. Sorry, I wanted grief and travel in the title. And uh I actually had I was in Minnesota, I called my mom, and we were gonna meet somewhere, and I don't remember what came up, but she said good grief, and I was like, that's it, good grief travel. So it was uh it reminded me of like the the peanuts, you know, the Snoopy. I can't remember which character said that all the time, but Good Grief, Charlie Brown.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Was it yeah, exactly?

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

I think you're right.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

So I was borrowing from that. Uh but I I thought it was kind of catchy and it worked, and I created my website and a blog, and uh I try to try to write some interesting things on there, details of travel tips, and I've also written some like how to prepare life life preparation, not or death preparation, I guess, if you will. But there's little things you can do to make it a whole lot easier for the people you leave behind. My wife and I had that mostly set up. But we had also planned that I would go first, frankly, and uh there was some messes that I had to deal with that she felt bad. She knew it was coming. Um the plan was I I was gonna die first. I was I was overweight, and uh I was especially during COVID, I was drinking quite a bit. I I don't I I enjoy a beer with dinner, but now I I rarely drink and uh I've lost a ton of weight. I've I exercise every day, but for a while there I was not looking great. And uh Yeah, we just kind of knew she would she would outlive me, but but cancer caught her and and it didn't work out that way.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah, we just never know, you know. I always thought my mom would go before my dad, but surprise, it was the other way around. And we weren't prepared for that. We were prepared for the other way, so yeah, I get that. But I wanted to ask you, was there a particular trip a moment when you realized that travel was helping you reconnect with life?

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Oh, I think I think uh after my first trip, and it was really in the the Philippines, that was a majestic experience, and that was in a way it was a lot of luck. I had met a sort of virtual friend on Reddit, and we were friends on WhatsApp, and I told her I was I was pretty miserable in Tokyo because I was. I I I have been sent back to Tokyo and my opinions changed, but it is an isolating place. The people there are are laser focused on whatever they're doing, and there's not a lot of general socializing, at least in my opinion. And this is as a single traveler, I I think it's different if you're with somebody because you have your own companion built in. But I was alone and I was in a dark place, and I was miserable, and I I told her I I think I'm just gonna go home. I'd only been gone like three days, and she said, Why don't you come to the Philippines? I'll send you off into the islands. And uh a friend of mine from Minnesota is from the Philippines, and he had at one point talked about Palawan, so I was like, why not? And then I so I did. I booked a trip the next day or the flight to to Cebu. I had dinner with her, and I think I was there two nights, I can't quite remember. But she sent me off to Koron, which is part of Palawan, it's one of those smaller islands, I guess, or less less common places to go. Most people go to El Nido, I think. And I had found a resort online, it was it truly incredible. Like I I didn't know what I was getting into, but I the maybe it was just the luck of my my flight, but it seemed to be a lot of backpacker types, and and then there was me. I got off the airplane, which is the the airport is like a garage, it's a very small structure. And there's a guy holding, you know, there's one like nice van and a guy holding my name, and everybody else is like getting into taxis. And they drove me to Two Seasons is the hotel, and that was that one was called Dock Side or Pier Side, Beachside, I can't remember. Something side, meaning on the on the land. And I got out and started to the check-in process, and they said, No, your boat will be here soon. And I'm like, Well, I don't know what that means. And uh 20 minutes later, they were carrying my luggage to a pretty fancy speedboat, and it was, I don't know, 20 to 30 minutes out. Just going through all these islands is incredibly beautiful. And we're kind of coming up on one, and you can see like cabanas on the on the beach and this tiny island. And I was like, holy shit, I I think that's where I'm going. You know, I didn't know what I was getting into, and it was it was very like fantasy island. Like I if if you guys might remember that show, a lot of younger people were like boat pulled up to the dock, and it it was truly like out of a movie. I I never thought I would have that experience, and and it was very accidental. I didn't I didn't know that I had booked that experience, and uh it was just luck, you know. Here I am on like this incredibly beautiful island, and uh the next day I I booked a a private tour, was it? I can't actually don't remember, but I was the only person on this boat that was uh the guy didn't trust that I could swim. His name was Mark, and we became friends. I I still remember, but he uh he didn't really trust me to swim. The first stop that we went to you had to wear a life jacket. It it's uh a lake in the you have to kind of climb a mountain and get into this lake. But someone had died there, I think, a year ago, and so they break every it's required, including the guides who are incredible swimmers, to wear life jackets. And then we went to another spot that I had to wear a life jacket, and then we went to a third spot, and I said, if I have to wear a life jacket, I'm not getting in the water. And he he was like, Okay, I'll let you swim. So I got in with him, and we there was a sunken World War II boat, and we it was a pretty crowded area, and we swam that together, and we submerged, and we got some cool video on the GoPro. We got back to the boat and he was like, You're a pretty good swimmer. I said, Yeah, I you know, I was trying to tell you. And he said, Well, we got a couple more hours of sunlight. Do you want to go to my favorite reef? I'm like, Yeah, sure. And so he talked to the driver, and um, it was just him and Mark and myself. We were, I you don't think you could see land in sight. And he stopped and he said, We're gonna swim about 700 meters that way and 700 back. And it was this incredible open water reef uh that we swam together. And when we got back to the boat, he's like, I never would believe you could swim, you know, up close to two kilometers. But we did that together and we kind of bonded over that. It was an amazing experience. And the next day I'm having breakfast, and one of the servers in the restaurant said, Mark's at your door. I didn't sign up for anything today. So I I go to the I go to my room, my my cabana, which was an amazing, cool little cabana on the beach, and he's like, I don't have any tours today. Do you want to just swim with me? And he took me to his favorite spots right off the the coast there on the beach. There were giant clams like the size of a I don't I don't know, the size of a small chair. They're huge and uh opening and closing their mouths. Yeah, like you could stick your whole arm in there if you wanted to risk it. Like they're incredibly huge. But that's amazing. That was life-changing for me. I went from, you know, I wasn't sure I wanted to keep going to like here I am swimming in water that I never could have imagined, these these reefs. And I made a friend very quickly that, you know, took me under his wing because he he realized I could swim. Right. That that was life-changing, truly. And when I came home, my s my sons even said, you know, like uh they they could see a difference. And I I was only home ten days. We we were here two or three days, and then we went to Vegas and I booked a ticket from there. I said, I'm leaving again. And they said, Good for you. So they were they've been completely supportive of of my adventures. And uh yeah, I I don't remember where I went next, but it was somewhere in Asia. And I keep I keep ending up in Bangkok because that's my hub.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Love that.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

I do too. And what and we call what you what happened with you a misadventure. That's what Ian and I call them.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Those are our misadventures, and the best things happen when we have a misadventure. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

I've had so many of those, and I I just keep myself open to the world. And um, you know, people ask, what do you do? Like when you're in Shanghai or when you're in wherever I happen to be, and uh I I never have an agenda. I I most days I just walk out my hotel door and walk a direction, like walk five kilometers a day or miles roughly, and uh I just see what I find. I run into people, people are curious, especially solo travelers. I get stopped everywhere. I can I could be at a restaurant and people will ask me questions almost everywhere, not in Tokyo, but almost everywhere else I've been in in the last couple years. People are very curious why you're there, why you're alone, what you're up to, and and not I can't think of any instance that's ever been hostile. It's just very heartwarming, and uh, you feel like you're part of the community. So that it's been uh amazing for me.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Yeah. And one thing that people don't realize is that healing doesn't happen through dramatic moments, it's usually just ordinary experiences, little small things that give you the most sense of healing that happened to you.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

I would agree. I I uh I just took a door that was open for me, and both both my sons in their own way sent me through it. One was very encouraging. Gavin, he kept telling me to go do something, go be James Bond, and and that is exactly what I did that first trip. My other son, Griffin, he's very uh it's much much more to the point. He just said, do what you gotta do. But they both have been amazing uh support system for me. And uh yeah, it's uh I I I'm I'm I feel really lucky, but I you know I tell people like the door doesn't have to be the other side of the world. It it is it has been for me, and I'm lucky that I can do it. But it can be, you know, go bring a six-pack to your neighbor or or mow your neighbor's lawn without asking and s you know, see what happens. Like as you were saying about, you know, in Texas, and it's common for my people might drop off a meal. I think those days are a little bit lost, and if you can surprise someone with a batch of cookies or a six-pack or you know, uh a lot of people don't even know their neighbor neighbor's name anymore.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

So the door could just be walking across the street. So take take that door and open it and see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

I agree. I think you might Yeah, you'd be surprised.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

You know, sounds like that encounter with Mark has really stayed with you.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

In so many ways. You know, I I talked to him a lot. He he had a daughter. I don't remember exactly. She was seven or eight years old. And uh so I talked to people everywhere I go, and he was one of the first people I talked to, but I I said something like How many days a week do you work? Some a question similar to that. And he he kind of looked at me, you know, quizzically, like, what does that even mean? But he sees his family once a year for two days. He lives on that island as a swim guide. And I mean, it's just hard to wrap your head around that's heartbreaking seeing your family. Yeah, but he, you know, he was a I what I learned, you know, from a lot of people in the Philippines is that's sort of their life. You may they might have two days off a month, they work ten hour days, and they're they I think they feel lucky to have those hotel jobs. Like those are those are pretty decent jobs.

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

But it it's been really interesting to learn how hard or how little free time other people have and in a lot of other places in the world. And uh I feel lucky to have met them all of them. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Yeah, I feel Anne and I do a lot of cruises, and one thing when we're on the cruise is we get to know the the crew members very well and spend a lot of time with them. And a lot of them are from the Philippines and different other places in Asia, Indonesia, yeah. And that's one of the things that they talk about too is how grateful they are to have a job like that, or that they came from a hotel job to work on the cruise ship because it's more pay for them, but they work such long hours and they're gone from their families for months on end, and I just can't imagine that. It no, I can't either.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Yeah, and full disclosure, you know, our kids had been to 40-something countries, but a lot of those were cruises, and uh, we took advantage of that. The the cruises are a great sample plate of seeing a lot of parts of the world, but you also meet people from all over the world on the on the cruises. Yes. But I agree, I think that's where I started to talk to people from around the world. And yeah, so many Philippines and some of Eastern Europe and Indonesia, the staff. And yeah, they I don't envy their job, but usually they seem happy to have them, like in my experience.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah, yeah, ours too. But yeah, I do feel bad for them.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Yeah, exactly. And we always make sure that we do nice stuff for them while we're on the cruise for a week, or usually we're on there for two weeks. So we always make sure that we do nice stuff for them. Every port that we get off in, we ask our room steward, is there anything that he would like from N Port? Um, because they don't always get to get off in each port. And so yeah, we'll get we go buy whatever they say that they would like or need and bring it back to them.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

That's so nice. My wife always left cash on the as a tip. Yep, we do that too. Got too through the the system, but she wanted them to actually have tips, like hard cash.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

So that little chocolates here and there, just little things really make their day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So one thing that many widows and widowers talk about is when they lose their spouse, they lose part of their identity. Do you think that's true? Did you experience that as well?

SPEAKER_00 38:57

I don't know. No, I I guess I don't I'd certainly lost my path, and but she's with me all the time. I'm I'm like I said, I'm always asking what she would think of of whatever I'm up to, if she would approve or not. Yeah, sorry. I don't know that I have a good answer to that, but it it's just it's a lack of a direction, or at least for me. I just didn't I still don't know what I'm doing. I you know, I've talked to I've dated a little bit and people ask, you know, what where is what's this gonna look like in a year? And I'm so what I've learned is I have no idea. I I mean I don't know nobody knows anyway, but I truly like you don't know what's gonna happen. You just don't. So I've I have a different approach maybe now to to life and uh I'm just I'm living it as big as I can.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Yeah. Yeah, that's our that's our new thing too, is that we we have seen both of our spouses have gotten ill and can no longer travel anymore and or do much of anything really. And so that has become our goal is that we want to do and see as much as we can while we can before we don't have the opportunity anymore. We don't want to have regrets.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

I think you know I'm running out of time here, so you know we gotta get it done.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Sorry. The the podcast over time in general.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

No, I I mean I'm like older than you guys. I'm running out of time. So Shannon and I have to get our traveling in.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

I don't know if that was code that you needed to use the restroom or not.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Oh, that's a good one. I like that. We may have to use that in the future. So if you hear it on a future podcast, you'll be like, ha ha ha ha.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah, I know what's happening.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

How do you rebuild a life when the person that shared so much of it with you is gone? Where do you start?

SPEAKER_00 41:01

You know, for up until very recently, I told people I was retired and I've been self-employed my whole life for the most part. And I c I kind of promised my wife it was her her her the direction she gave me was to sell everything and go live my life because the the life we built financially, she wasn't gonna be able to enjoy. And I I I'm not capable of not doing things. I'm actually probably working harder than I ever have. The difference though is I'm doing what I want to do, and it's not necessarily it's actually has almost nothing to do with becoming making money, I should say. I did the math and the way I wrote my book was dumb. Um but I I would take me eight or nine years of the way that the the sales have gone to just cover my costs. That that doesn't include the travel costs because of how I did this thing. And um I didn't write a book to make money. I actually just finished writing a novel because I had so much fun, sort of. Fun's probably the wrong word, but it felt really good to write my first book. And then I had a I wrote a comedy, which I'm very proud of, um, which is a travel book. I'll send you a copy when I'm really done, which will be any day. But I f I think the downfall perhaps for me, I'm I'm still relatively young. Uh you know, I think a lot of people go back to work and they have the they can lean on their days being occupied by like normal activities. And I I've never had that in my life. My I'm self-driven and I don't I didn't have an office to go to, I didn't have a task that I had to really accomplish. And I'd backed out of my business uh when she was ill. So I was just kind of stuck at home. And luckily my sons were here, or you know, things might have changed in a in a more negative way because I I was in a dark place. But I I just have kind of dive dove dived into many projects of writing as part of it. I've been participating on an online project that uh just sounded like fun. I I mean I'm working a lot when I'm not traveling, and and even now because I have my own apartment in in Bangkok, I'm working there quite frequently too. But I I think, you know, in general, people can return to a sort of normal life because they have to. And I didn't. So I had to create a new life in that way, and and the travel has really filled that space for me. Um and I, you know, I I'm gone a lot. I'm I'm not I don't sit anywhere for more than a few weeks usually. I'm changing that a little bit because I'm spending more time in Thailand in Bangkok, but uh even they I'm leaving in a month. I'm home, I can't fly for six weeks because I just had a nasal off uh surgery. And I'm kind of like, wait a minute, like six weeks is far too long to sit anywhere. But I I'm going back to Bangkok and I'm gonna be there about two weeks, and then I I have a friend that I might visit. Visit in Rome. My mom is asking me to take her to Germany. I I I'm not quite sure what I'm gonna do, but I think you guys will like this actually. Maybe, maybe uh you can use this. But I so what I've learned and what I love about all my travel in almost everywhere I've been, you can be out to dinner or any kind of meal and strike up a conversation with the table next to you, and it's normal, which I don't I think that's not so normal in the US anymore, right? At least in my experience. But I was just having Japanese barbecue in Bangkok less than a month ago, and there was a group of guys that worked for Boeing, and we're bullshitted with them for over an hour and just having a great time. And the they were talking about how many countries they had been to. I don't rem know how we arrived at that, but they travel often for their jobs. And the one guy was 60 something, I can't quite remember, and he said something that I love, and I'm so it's it's now in my playbook. But his goal was to have always have traveled to more countries than his age. So he I think he was 62, he'd been to 65 countries. He's like, I gotta go to a new one soon because I'm catching up.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

I'm 55, and I think my count now is 61. I have a little buffer, but I'm I'm planning to go to Borneo, or I haven't totally decided. I really want to see the Myanmar Islands that just west of Thailand. I know Myanmar is uh not a smart place to go, but I guess the islands are incredibly beautiful. So I have some places I want to go just to add to my number and give myself some more time. So I'm I like that. Yeah, I thought it was great. I I I I've been telling people to use that one.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

So yeah, I love that. So that means I gotta get on the ball because I'm way behind.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Go do some of those international cruises or you you knock off like six or six.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Before we continue, I want to share something really special we've created for this community. If you've ever listened to an episode and felt something deeper, like a moment that stayed with you, or a story that made you reflect on your own life, we wanted to give you a place to go with that. We've officially launched our Travel Time Stories membership where you can go beyond listening and become part of the experience. Inside the membership, you'll get access to the Story Circle, our private community where we reflect on each episode through guided journal prompts, share our stories, and connect through monthly meetups. There are also additional tiers with opportunities to go even deeper from storytelling and sharing your voice to being part of the creative journey behind the scenes and joining us on our yearly group travels. If this speaks to you, you can join us through the link in the show notes or visit our website, travel timestories.com. We would truly love to have you join the community. So, Derek, this is your first memoir and one of the first public conversations about grief. And so what made now feel like the right time to tell a story?

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Well, I started that story about a year ago and I couldn't do it in a traditional way. I wrote I wrote it in a kind of a traditional way, and I I just felt like if I could help people get out the door, and so motion or movement to me is important and a sense of community, which I think you find when you're outside and not inside. I really wanted to share that message and I hope people pick up on it. But yeah, I I wrote it, I wrote my story, it was very linear from then to now. Uh it was about 40, 50 pages, and I just couldn't get past to that. I hired a ghostwriter to finish it for me, which took a really long time and a lot of money that I'm not very happy about. And when I got that back, it was really bad. There was details that were completely wrong, and Oh no. It wasn't my voice at all. And so I marked it all up. I printed it off, I marked it all up, and then I started dictating. I was basically reading the chapters to myself and adding my own anecdotes in voice memo. And then I was having that transcribed, and I would ask AI to help me organize my thoughts because I I get a little sidetracked. But I I had the story, and and then I had someone else kind of help me make a broader story, and then just by verbalizing. So I'm I'm not much of a writer, but I'm a decent storyteller. And it took me about six or seven pass-throughs of of it's basically an audio book that's been transcribed, is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

But it it took me a while to get there, and and and then I just I just felt like I could share that message. I don't know who I wrote the book for exactly. I partly for my sons, maybe. I think I wrote it for my wife. I I've I've approached things much differently than maybe normal, like as an example. And I think you guys will appreciate this as a travel podcast, but my wife loved travel more than I had. Maybe I'm I've caught up with her now, but travel was major for her. And I we talked about it when she was in the hospital. But I instead of doing a headstone because she was cremated, and that we I don't want to leave her in Minnesota because that wasn't going to be our final destination. So she's still in our house in uh in an urn, but I had 500 or so, I don't remember the number, but it's these they're like river rocks, and it has her name engraved on one side, and then on the back side it says uh forever traveler. And at the Celebration of Life, I asked people to take one or two or however many they wanted and to leave them all over the world. And I've been doing the same. So you know, I'm leaving her everywhere I go that I feel like is a beautiful place, and uh and so she's continuing to travel, you know, and I I feel really good about that.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

I like that. I love that. We the last cruise we were on last year, we met a gentleman and he he was a widower, and he actually brings some of his wife's ashes each time he travels and leaves some at the places that he visits.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Okay. So it's similar.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

I thought that was yeah, I thought that was amazing too. I was like, oh my god, and he was telling us that I think uh at that time uh he said that 20 there was 22 places that he had left part of her at so far. And yeah, I just thought that was amazing. I was like, how incredible. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

I saw I saw on Facebook recently someone was a little upset they had left one of the stones in some are particular and then it was gone. And I said, you know, that's exactly where it's supposed to be, wherever it ended up. I maybe some kid picked it up and it's uh paperweight. I mean that but that's what I wanted to happen. I wanted them to keep moving and and uh and I told them that, which I think they relieved their own burden they put on themselves. But the whole point was for those rocks to keep moving, and and they are. I only have a few left, I've left them for my sons to deal with, uh, but up until recently I've been leaving them all over.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

I love that. I really love that. That was so nice. So what are you hoping that readers take away from Good Grief Travel? Which I love the title, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Thank you. I just hope it f helps people feel a little unstuck and and that maybe movement will help them. It's hard to get through that. It's hard to force yourself through the door. But I just wanted to show that it's possible. Like I did it on my own, like with with a little bit of push from my sons. But most of what I've been doing has been self-driven. And uh, you know, I think just a sense of community, if you can make it happen at home, like I said, talk to your neighbors, talk to your you know, for a while, I this was I lost a one of my close friends maybe seven or eight years ago, and I I vowed to myself, which lasted about a year, but to every day I would call somebody in my phone book and I'd walk every day. That's usually my podcast time. But I it's I changed it so I would call a friend every day. And that was such an amazing experience because I posted my plan to do this, and you know, months later I would call somebody and they're like, I made the list. Like they got excited. You know, they were kind of following my story.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

And so I made the list.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

The movement is is really I think crucial to staying happy or you know, connected to the world, and and it's so easy to isolate in the United States. You close your garage door and binge watch Netflix, like it's great and convenient, but there's a whole world out there. And I think too, you know, for me, what I started to realize when you're in a dense city, which is in most of the world, you can't help but see the eyes. You might not talk to anybody, but you're seeing the eyes of two, three hundred, maybe a thousand people a day. And you don't feel too alone when you know there are other people out there. And that's I just was in downtown Minneapolis today. I don't think I saw more than a dozen people on the street. Like it's it's a very strange phenomenon. So that too is just to see people, because I think people want to be seen as well. And you can't do that when you're binge watching Netflix or Amazon Prime. So get out the door, ultimately, is my my message. I and I hope people just can make a decision to talk to their neighbor or or fly. Yeah, I I made an offer. If you're in Bangkok, I'll I'll take you to dinner. So take me up on it. I I have a few friends that are visiting me soon. I feel really good about that. Both my sons have come. My mom had never been to Asia. I took her for two weeks late last year, around October. In fact, that was crazy. It was uh it was the exact same day and flight. Two two years or three, two years from the day I my first trip that I was on the same flight, same flight number, everything with my mom from Minneapolis to Tokyo. It was unplanned.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

That's amazing. Yeah, that's wild.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

I took her to Tokyo, we went to Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, and she left from Taipei. So we spent a few days in Taipei, Taiwan, and I took her to the airport, I got her checked through security and said goodbye. There was a Starbucks in the in the airport. I went to the Starbucks, opened my laptop, and I called my son Gavin, and I said, I'm in Taipei and I'm looking at the flight board and I'm trying to decide where I'm going today. So that's how I travel. My mom said I'm like the, I don't forget the word she said. I think she said luxury, but she's like, You're the luxury Jack Reacher. You just take your toothbrush and go wherever the hell you decide to go.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

I like that. Nothing wrong with being that description at all.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

Absolutely not. It's it's been amazing, you know, and I've I've done that many times. I don't know where I'm going today or the next day, and I just throw a dart and see where where I land.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

Yeah. You end up where you're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Yeah, I think that's really what it's become for me. And I I've had almost no negative experiences. I didn't love Malay and the the capital of the Maldives. I would never, I wouldn't, if you go to the Maldives, avoid the capital, but the islands are incredible. Tokyo maybe is a little isolating if you're a solo traveler, but everywhere else I've been, I've I've found it just very welcoming and uh it's been an adventure for sure.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Wonderful. So what I hear you saying, Derek, is that when Ann and I come to Asia, you're gonna be our tour guide. That's what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Absolutely. And if if it's just one of you, I have a two-bedroom. It's a small bed, I don't know. Yeah, and two people would be tough.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

Yeah, we'd be fighting over that. Right.

unknown 56:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

I would love to take you to dinner. Please, please come on over. Uh for me, I I love that. I I I've made so many friends just by meandering and and saying hello at the table next to you. And that that you can do that without someone saying, Why are you talking to me?

SPEAKER_01 56:36

Exactly. Yeah, it's not odd there.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

People welcome it.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

I'm still trying to convince Anne that she wants to go to Asia. I do. I have always wanted to go there, but I'm trying to convince her that she does want to go.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Well, I listen, I listened, I thought it was really unfortunate, but also true. I just listened to one of your interviews and I can't remember her name. I think it was fairly recent, but she had not very nice things to say about China. As she was talking about leeches, and uh but I don't think that was Melissa.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Yeah, Melissa Broadway, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

And I actually wrote her an email after I listened to the podcast because I think she and I might have a fun conversation. But yeah she didn't like China very much, and it's one of my favorite places. But I I tried to find out what years she went, and I think it was probably around the first time I went to China, which I hated, to be honest. And now it's it's so it's dramatically different, uh I think. Because she talked about the pollution, and I haven't been to Beijing, admittedly, and that's where she was talking about. But I've been to I've been to about nine major cities, not Beijing and but many others, and uh, it's not polluted at all. They've they've made like this massive conversion to electric vehicles, and the streets are so clean. And I remember I was in this cafe in Shenzhen just having a coffee, and there's traffic and people, and I I was thinking, wow, it's so peaceful. I couldn't put my finger on why. And later I as I was walking down the street, it's because those electric cars don't make any sound. A street in Bangkok.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

I listen to music or podcasts, I have to crank up my headset just to hear anything. And in China, you you don't hear anything, it's it's so like amazing, and the air tastes okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 58:21

But I I know that like not that long ago it was it was a disaster.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Yeah. Now I will say that she did tell us that if Beijing hadn't been her last stop on her trip, she probably would have had a better experience and enjoyed it more. But because it was the last stop of her trip after all the other stuff that she had been through, and she was tired and just ready to be done. So yeah, that probably contributed to why she didn't like it as much.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Sure. That travel fatigue she talked about too, I found really interesting. I I've experienced that myself, and I hadn't really put a finger on it until I heard her articulate that the words, so that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Yeah. Yeah. She uh her book is incredible, by the way. Yeah. You should check it out. It's a really good read. The people you meet, the people you meet love lao lao and leeches. Leeches, yeah. It's a really good read.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Yeah, I was gonna order it. I uh I I really enjoyed that interview, and uh I I I can't think of any time I've ever written an email to someone after listening to an interview, and and I wrote to her because I just thought she would be fun to talk to.

unknown 59:42

She is.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

I think our experiences are somewhat similar.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Yeah, she's she's so much fun. So yeah, you definitely would enjoy speaking with her. We enjoyed it, and we're planning in the future to meet up with her and do a trip together. So yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

To Bangkok and you're gonna have dinner with me, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

Yes. Oh, yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

That's already in the universe.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Yeah, we already put that out there. So that's well, Derek, what I love about your story is that it doesn't promise easy answers. It reminds us that healing isn't linear, dramatic, or perfect. And sometimes it's simply taking the next step. And I think that's important for people to know.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:27

Yeah, I would agree. And sometimes it's saying yes to a conversation, a trip, a friendship, or a possibility when it would be easier to stay closed off. Where can listeners find out more about you and your book, Derek?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

Goodgrieftravel.com. That's all there.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

Well, thank you for sharing your story and reminding us that grief and joy can't exist in the same life. And if today's episode touched you, share it with someone who's navigating loss, transition, or change because healing doesn't always happen all at once. Sometimes it happens one conversation, one journey, and one connection at a time. And we'll have Derek's information in our show notes and on our website, traveltimestories.com, where each of our guests has a dedicated page so you can learn more about them and listen to their episodes. And we invite you to become a member of the Travel Time Stories family and join our Facebook community, the Story Circle, where we offer support, connection, and healing. All the information is on our website.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

We really enjoyed this episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

And you know, for those folks out there listening, I'm pretty sure I saw in the back of Derek's book that uh if you need a boot to get out the door, let him know. He will give you that boot and get you out the door and get you on your way.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

And just simple advice, especially in Asia, China. I've I've done a lot. I'm happy to pass my information along free. I I I love promoting movement, so happy to help.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

And until next time, keep traveling your story and keep making memories for life.